Here it is! The very first episode of DSMG’s brand new season – are you ready?
In this week’s episode, my guest Kristen Scher and I are diving deep into all things child feeding. Some of the topics we’ll be covering in this episode are;
- What the Division of Responsibility is and who has what role in the child-feeding relationship
- Unpacking the parent’s job when it comes to feeding – the what, the when, and the where of feeding our kids
- How diet culture shows up in child feeding and the problems that can cause
- The importance of unpacking our own issues with food before they trickle down to our kids
Keep an eye out for part 2 coming in a couple of weeks too!
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Edited by Joeli Kelly
Transcript:
Kristen Scher
What is a positive relationship with food? What’s going to help my kiddo have a trusting relationship with their body? What is going to help them trust me that I trust them? And also what shows my kid that I’m respecting their desires and wants, their hunger, their appetite, their natural intuitive sense of knowing what their body needs?
Laura Thomas
Hey friends, welcome to Don’t Salt My Game. I’m Laura Thomas. I’m a Registered Nutritionist specialising in intuitive eating and anti-diet nutrition. I’m also author of two books, Just Eat It and How to Just Eat It. And we are here to have conversations with game-changers who are flipping diet culture on its head. So welcome back to the first full episode in over a year. I’m so excited to introduce you to today’s guest. But first, just a quick ad break.
So if you are a healthcare professional working with families or kids, then I invite you to check out the Learn with LCIE course, Raising Embodied Eaters — a new course that dives deep into what is typical feeding behaviour, why things like pressure and restriction usually backfire, and how an attuned and responsive feeding relationship helps kids hang on to that embodied trust that they have in themselves around food and their bodies. This course is made up of over 11 hours of video content plus papers and resources that you can use with families or schools. And you’ll also have the chance to ask me questions every month in our Learn with LCIE community group. It dives deep into the science of responsive feeding and equips practitioners with lots of practical tools and techniques that they can use in their own clinical practice. We also cover topics like ARFID or avoidant restrictive food intake disorder. We cover how to communicate with friends and families around food and feeding values, and how to support embodied eating in schools and in daycare settings. We also have two amazing guest lectures covering whether we really need to teach nutrition to kids and on decolonizing nutrition practice. We’re also adding a third guest lecture shortly on feeding neurodivergent kids with feeding challenges. So watch out for that. This is a course aimed at professionals working with kids but especially nutritionists, dieticians, health visitors, GPs, school nurses, occupational therapists, and speech and language therapists who are working with kids and families who might be feeling stressed, stuck or confused about their eating. To find out more about Raising Embodied Eaters, and to sign up for the course, you can follow the link in the show notes in your podcast player or head to laurathomasphd.co.uk.
Laura Thomas
Alright, team today I am super excited to introduce you to Kristen Scher. Kristen is a parenting coach in service to families and how they relate to their bodies and food. She has a background in early childhood education and is a certified Body Trust provider through Be Nourished, as well as an intuitive eating counsellor, so she can support folks repair a ruptured relationship to both food and their bodies. Kristen starts grad school in the fall to get her degree in family, couple, and marriage therapy so that she can work even more deeply with families and partnerships in this work. Sounds so cool. When I was planning for the new series of the podcast, Kristen was top of my list. I really love her sort of laid back but no-bullshit approach to feeding kids and families. And I’m so excited that she’s the first guest back after our extended hiatus. In this episode, we take a deep dive into the division of responsibility and feeding — a framework and a model that is really highly regarded in the kid feeding world for helping kids maintain a sense of autonomy around eating, to help untangle power struggles at mealtimes, and support kids natural hunger and fullness cues. The model can be really helpful because it clearly defines the parents’ roles and the kids’ roles in feeding and eating. And we know that when those boundaries get crossed, that that’s when we can run into trouble in the feeding relationship. But the model hasn’t evolved in some 30 odd years. And so Kristen and I unpacked some of the places that people sometimes get stuck, how diet culture sometimes sneaks in and shows up and can lead to problems, and why it’s most important to be attuned and responsive to our kiddos. So we unpack the parent’s job when it comes to feeding the what, the when, and the where of feeding our kids. And then we let kids do their jobs. We also talk a bit about how a lot of us need to be better at parenting ourselves around food before it can trickle down to our kids. Also, some of you who follow me over on @bubappetit generously sent me some case studies for Kristen and I to discuss. We didn’t get to any of them, we just ran out of time in this episode. So we’re going to plan part two, which is just going to be answering your questions and going through your case studies. So stay tuned for that in a couple of weeks’ time. Alright, team, this is already a pretty long episode, so I’m just gonna get straight into it. Here’s Kristen.
Laura Thomas
Are you ready?
Kristen Scher
So ready.
Laura Thomas
All right, Kristen. We’re gonna start with a quickfire round. So I’m gonna ask a question. And I want to hear the first thing that comes to mind. Are you ready?
Kristen Scher
Yes. Let’s do this.
Laura Thomas
What subject do you like best at school — did you like best at school?
Kristen Scher
Yeah, like currently? I haven’t…, going back to school in the fall. But okay, um, yeah, during school…I think it was a toss-up between history and English, but history I think. History?
Laura Thomas
Just kind of like, pips it for you. Okay.
Kristen Scher
Yeah.
Laura Thomas
Most refreshing beverage?
Kristen Scher
Margarita.
Laura Thomas
Ooh, I like where your head is at. Tacos or pizza?
Kristen Scher
Tacos today.
Laura Thomas
Today?
Kristen Scher
Yeah, it changes.
Laura Thomas
Might be different on another day. If you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be?
Kristen Scher
London? It’s my favourite. I mean, the UK in general. I must have, I don’t know, I lived there in past life or something. But I love London.
Laura Thomas
I’m like giving you a face right now.
Kristen Scher
Yeah, we’ll switch, and we’ll do that, uh, that last the holiday show where you come to Portland, Oregon, and I go to London, and we switch homes for a few weeks.
Laura Thomas
It’s so hilarious. I love Portland.
Kristen Scher
I love Portland too. It is like my dream place. We moved here on purpose because it’s beautiful. Yeah.
Laura Thomas
Okay, just so you know, it’s the first of April as we’re recording this and it’s snowing in London.
Kristen Scher
Nooo!
Laura Thomas
Yeah.
Kristen Scher
Okay, it’s sunny and like maybe almost 60 degrees Fahrenheit.
Laura Thomas
I can tell. I can just see it in your demeanour. Your whole disposition is just sunny and bright.
Kristen Scher
I tell my spouse often though, that like the only way I would leave Portland is if like either of us got a job in London. That’s it.
Laura Thomas
Okay, well, just remember it snows in April here. So. Okay, do you have a hidden talent?
Kristen Scher
A hidden talent?
No, ah, not a talent. I can tap dance. Not very well.
Laura Thomas
I feel like that’s a talent.
Kristen Scher
Yeah, but if you saw me do it you, that’s just a mediocre movement. Not so much talent, but I do. I can tap.
Laura Thomas
Okay, I mean, like, my hidden talent is like turning my eyelids inside out. So I feel like you’ve got me, tap dancing is way more impressive than that. Favourite flavour of cake?
Kristen Scher
Chocolate chocolate. Yeah, chocolate frosting chocolate cake.
Laura Thomas
I have to tell you this. So at the moment, Avery is really — this is a cake story. Avery is really into cooking, like pretend cooking in his kitchen. And I keep saying to him, like, I’m like, What would you like to cook? And he’s like cake. And I’m like, Okay, what kind of cake and he’s like oat cake. He’s not fully grasped the concept of cake yet.
Kristen Scher
He’ll give you some weird Scottish Highland, yeah, adorable. Maxing little bannock or whatever they’re called.
Laura Thomas
I figured out that they’ve been giving him oatcakes at nursery. And so that’s what, that’s why.
Kristen Scher
I mean, delicious with some butter and jelly or something. But not cake.
Laura Thomas
Not cake.
Kristen Scher
Not a cake, no.
Laura Thomas
I was, we were drawing cupcakes and birthday cakes as well. And he’s starting to be able to differentiate, but there’s a long way to go there. Okay, sorry, not a quickfire round. I need to get better at this. Last question. Favourite kitchen utensils?
Kristen Scher
I feel like I have ah, I have so many. Is this weird? And I get really mad when they’re not in the drawer where they’re supposed to be. Like, I love a peeler. A peeler is fantastic to peel vegetables. And I love, I love tongs. I love tongs.
Laura Thomas
Good answer. I like that one. I feel like this has been a long-standing question and I’m not sure anyone’s gone with tongs before. There you go.
All right. Kristen, so something I really wanted to unpack with you is some nuance around the division of responsibility, in feeding, to give it its full title, which is a model that really often gets used in the child feeding space. But I find that it can sometimes get applied a bit too rigidly. And there are some things that are a bit problematic in there. So, to begin with, should we start off by explaining what the division of responsibility is?
Kristen Scher
Let’s do it. A little refresher course? Yes. So the division of responsibility is a framework, it’s a model to divide up the parents or the guardian or the caretaker or the teacher, the adult job and, and then the child’s job when it comes to feeding. So the adult’s job is, what the food is that’s being offered, where the food is being offered, and when the food is being offered, and the kid’s job is how much of the food they want to eat, or if they want to eat it at all.
Laura Thomas
That’s a perfect summary. And I think like, what I, what I want to say here about the division of responsibility and why…So I’m very conflicted division of responsibilities, not conflicted, like it’s a good model, it’s a solid model. And where I think it can be really useful, and really helpful, is from the perspective that parents often think that it’s their responsibility or their job to get their child to eat. And so what is so helpful about division of responsibility is it, is it parses out the parent’s responsibilities versus the child’s responsibilities, and it’s the child’s responsibility to do the eating. It’s not the parent’s job to get the child to eat.
Kristen Scher
Yes, it’s a great answer, I think, to that common thing of parents saying, here’s the food, now eat this many bites of this. Now, eat this many bites of this, and now you’re done. And that’s not the best way to go about it.
Laura Thomas
Yeah. Because that I mean, that undermines autonomy, it can cause challenges in terms of, of the child being able to trust and understand and interpret their own internal cues, it can cause a lot of issues. And the way that I often explain it, when I’m working with parents is that it kind of sets an invisible boundary. I mean, it’s not really invisible, because we are actually clearly defining what the boundaries are, that’s maybe a more helpful way of saying it. And what can often happen is that when we cross those boundaries, either the parent does the child’s job for them, or in a lot, in some cases as well, the child ends up doing the parent’s job. That’s where we often run into troubles, trouble, troubles, trouble, challenges in the feeding dynamic. Is that fair to say?
Kristen Scher
Yeah, yeah, I think that’s 100% fair. That like either, either in some cases, I feel like the kid’s doing all the jobs, or the parent’s doing all the jobs, or they’re switching? Yeah.
Laura Thomas
Yeah. Yeah. Or that those boundaries are not being maintained in a way that is kind of consistent.
Kristen Scher
Yeah, they’re, I think a lot of times, there’s like, um, insecurity that comes up from kids of, do I need to get my own snack? Are you going to provide snack? Who’s providing this? Not something that they’re thinking about actively, but you can see that in, in their, like behaviours around food.
Laura Thomas
Yeah. So one thing that, that we haven’t said is that the division of responsibility is a model that has been around since I think, the 80s maybe? It’s been, it’s been around for a long time. And it was developed by a dietitian and a family therapist called Ellyn Satter, right? And Ellyn Satter, is kind of, you know, is held up as being a, an authority in the child feeding space, which I think is fair to say.
Kristen Scher
THE authority for the longest time, that’s what it’s been.
Laura Thomas
Yeah.
Kristen Scher
Yeah.
Laura Thomas
Go on, were you going to say something there?
Kristen Scher
No. And that like that, that’s, you know, of when you’re reading about kids and eating Ellyn Satter’s coming up. Whether you know, and that can be that’s a great thing, like we said in in a lot of cases. The framework is so helpful. And also, you know, something that came about in the 80s. There’s not a lot of things that we’re hanging on and holding up as this thing that was discovered in the 80s is perfect and doesn’t need to evolve or change or anything. And so we’re really noticing the, where it’s lacking where it hasn’t moved with the times and where it hasn’t really recognised what, you know, what all the kinds of problems are, with all the many different types of families that there are. And I think like the rest of the like eating community field, eating disorders, in the 80s and 90s, pretty much it was thought of as a white, rich girl problem. And it’s similar, a lot of the feeding, that feeding struggles that were getting a lot of the attention and the research were similar, and that, you know, that’s leaving out the majority of families, the majority of cases, and just so much nuance. And that we’ve seen in the past weeks, we’ve seen, you know, Ellyn Satter’s Institute, just kind of showing that, I guess. I don’t, I don’t want to like drag it through the, through the mud, because like I said, it’s such a helpful framework. But they’re, they’re also are these other dietitians and these other people in this field who are doing the work to make the field more inclusive. And to address the, the families that are left out or left behind by DOR.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, yeah, I think I don’t, I don’t want to belabour this point at all. But it feels really important, given the current conversations that are taking place in the HAES community around, specifically, Lindo Bacon, and their treatment of Mikey, which I’ll if for people who want to catch up on everything that’s been going on, I’m going to make sure and link to all the different accounts in the show notes. But essentially, there’s a big conversation taking place at the moment about around power dynamics, and specifically around imbalanced power dynamics. And between thin, white folks predominantly in the HAES space, and really, the abuse of power towards more marginalised folks. Is that like a…? That’s a very cursory kind of explanation of what’s going on.
Kristen Scher
Yeah, there’s so much more about, like, you know, who started like, you know, the fat liberation movement is not started by obviously, thin white people. And so, yeah, yeah, I think that’s a very simple way to be like, this community has been saying, wait a minute, we are not holding up the voices of the people who this whole community movement is supposed to be for, why aren’t we listening to them?
Laura Thomas
And so just this feels like an aside to the, you know, talking about feeding kids. But where this comes in, is that the Ellyn Satter Institute posted a really thoughtless…
Kristen Scher
ill-timed…
Laura Thomas
Yeah. And basically, all I wanted to say is that ESI’s response to that whole situation was really bad.
Kristen Scher
Really bad.
Laura Thomas
It was really, really bad. And I think this is a reflection, like you were saying of how they haven’t really kind of adapted and evolved with the current conversations that are going on and haven’t kind of thought about, Okay, where is where’s some of the stuff that we produce lacking? And how can we make it more inclusive, and respond, to you know, where we’re at in 2022?
Kristen Scher
Yeah, 100%. Right.
Laura Thomas
Did you want to add anything to that or?
Kristen Scher
No, I think I think that that, I think that, I think you got it.
Laura Thomas
Right. So and there’s a lot more to it, but like this is not the time or the place for us to unpack. I just wanted to acknowledge that. And I think so but, but more specifically, what I wanted to just say is that with the model, as it currently stands, you know, it was created by, you know, a straight size, I believe, white person who is neurotypical, and non-disabled, and from a, you know, financially privileged background. And so, with that in mind, I think there are a lot of kids and families that get bit maybe, you know, there might, that this model might not feel like it fits 100%? There might be like some, yeah, I don’t know, it might, it might feel jarring, or, yeah, like, it just doesn’t quite fit their family. And a lot of that I think to do is to do with kind of who it was built for.
Kristen Scher
Right.
Laura Thomas
So for example, if you’re coming from a household that is food insecure, or if you have a kiddo who’s neurodivergent or disabled, for example, then there might, you know, that might not feel quite right,
Kristen Scher
Yeah, or even if you have a, you know, a child with an eating disorder, you know, it’s, it’s not, it’s not a way to heal an eating disorder. And so I, that’s part of my work is like, parents come to me, and, you know, oftentimes, I’m able to help them. And oftentimes, I’m, like, you know, this, you know, is raising some, you know, either sensory processing disorder, or ARFID, or other eating disorder, you know, I’m hearing things that are beyond my, you know, beyond the scope of my practice, and like, I think you should probably go, you know, go elsewhere, go to someone with a higher level of care, because division of responsibility is not going to, is not going to fix something like that. It’s not going to fix an eating disorder or sensory issue. It’s really just about the power dynamics of the table. And it’s great for helping feeding relationships between parents and kids. It’s not going to fix, like an underlying medical issue if that makes sense.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, it absolutely does. And I think maybe we’ve, we’ve kind of jumped in with, like, oh, here are the problems with the Division of Responsibility, but maybe it would be helpful for us to think about where it can be helpful. Like you mentioned there in terms of feeding dynamics, and, you know, power struggles at the table, tell me, what you feel are the benefits of division of responsibility.
Kristen Scher
I feel like one of the best things about it is that it helps parents kind of unpack the stress around how diet culture has kind of hijacked their parenting at the table. Like it’s a great tool for, it’s a great tool to help them be like, slow down, backup, zoom out, let’s think about, you know, they’ll come to me and they’ll say, you know, my kid will only eat these five vegetables, they’ll only, they only like this pasta with this sauce. And they really like ice cream. And they’re, you know, they’re hiding Oreos, they’re, you know, things like that, where they’re like, it’s clear that they are uncomfortable about certain foods and amounts of certain foods. And they’re feeling insecure about the foods that they hold up as really good for their kid that they’re not eating enough. And so it’s a great way to kind of give them this like checks and balances thing to check like, okay, if I’m, as long as they’re doing it with food neutrality, if I’m coming to the table, and I’m offering the broccoli, the pasta, the cookie, as much as everything in me from all the parenting stuff that I’ve read, says, Don’t let that kid have that cookie until that broccoli is done. I know from this framework to zip it, just don’t say anything. And so that that’s what I find to be the most helpful. It’s for, it’s for parents who have so much of their mind occupied by the minutiae of the nutritional value of food, and the amounts that their kids are eating it, whether it’s too small or too much in their mind, that it’s a really helpful to tool for that. It helps them check themselves. Yeah.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, like like we were saying before, it kind of like helps them stay in their lane when it comes to like so, going back to what it actually involves, parents are again responsible for where, when, and what. So once you’ve decided what’s on the menu is pasta and broccoli and a cookie, it’s then over to, you know, you’ve done your job. Well, you also have to decide the when, and the where, which we’ll kind of come to in a second. But once you’ve decided the what, it’s over to the kid. Like you’ve done your job. Where do you see people getting caught up with the what part of it?
Kristen Scher
They get caught…even in my own house, so like, you know, a couple years ago, discovering this, and this all happened, like after, So full disclosure, I had an eating disorder growing up. I found having my first daughter to be very activating, very stressful of how the heck am I going to teach this kid how to eat when I’m still figuring out how to feed myself that that was like a really hard question for me. And I had intuitive eating, but I didn’t know how to like bridge that, especially with, you know, my husband’s voice, my mom’s voice, you know, everybody has an opinion about what your kid is eating.
Laura Thomas
Oh my God, it’s wild. People feel like, like they can just comment on, that’s true of all parenting stuff. But like especially when it comes to food.
Kristen Scher
It’s sleep and it’s food and people will not stop. But anyway, so that’s how I came to division of responsibility. I found it to be so liberating, so helpful. And, and also there were some like, you know, like, part of Ellyn Satter, there’s the division of responsibility but then, you know, she also talks a lot about like food components, like fat protein, carbs stuff. And some of that I got tripped up on like, oh, I shouldn’t only offer goldfish because that’s just a carb when all I had was goldfish in the car, like feed your kids when they’re hungry, you know, is the very bottom line. If they’re hungry, feed them, it doesn’t matter what it is, just feed them. And then if you have other options, great. Also, add in those things, but it’s not only feed your kid if you have a fat and a protein and carb. Anyway. Now I feel like I’m going on a tangent.
Laura Thomas
I have written down balance and put a big circle around it because I want to come back to that very point.
Kristen Scher
Okay. So I learned this, I was teaching it to my husband. Because, you know, he’s like, what? they can have sugar? What? Because everything you read, everything you hear is sugar is gonna wreck your child. And everyone’s gonna be unhealthy and get really sick and fat. And we know that that is not true. That is the science says that that is not true. And so I taught it to my husband. And now it’s interesting, because where he gets tripped up is things like, it’s 10 minutes till dinner. And my older daughter is like, Can I have some ice cream? And my husband goes, I’ll say, Sure. Let’s have it with dinner. Can you get it out? And we’ll put it on the table. And my husband goes, Excuse me, Kristen. What happened to Ellyn Satter would say that’s not on the menu. You know, you decided that we’re having XYZ for dinner. Why does, why is the child getting to decide what comes to the table too? And that’s where I’m like, because everybody has opinions and wants and desires. I decide what’s in the house? Like, it’s not like she’s going, can I run to the store and get a I don’t know, whatever it is. But the point is, that’s where I say to my husband, like zoom out? Is this about a power structure about maintaining the authority of who gets to decide what’s for dinner? You seem to think that. I don’t believe that. I think this when I zoom out, I think what is a positive relationship with food? What’s going to help my kiddo have a trusting relationship with their body? What is going to help them trust me that I trust them? And also what shows my kid that I’m respecting their desires and wants, their hunger, their appetite? Their natural intuitive sense of knowing what their body needs? Like if I wanted to have ice cream, and someone told me no, that’s not on the menu I’d like you know…And I think, so I think it’s easy to get tripped up in these rules, especially because so many parents kind of cling to those rules as a way to control kids. And that’s just not my vibe.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, and well, but I think that that is so much a byproduct of us not having done our own work, or not fully done our own work around intuitive eating and processing our shit around diet culture, and anti-fatness and all of the things if, if we haven’t done that, we are, we can so easily take something that is supposed to be a flexible framework and apply it like another set of rules, as we do with diet rules and food rules.
Kristen Scher
Exactly, yes, totally. And Virginia Soul Smith wrote a newsletter, was it a newsletter, or a podcast? I think it was a newsletter, on their Burnt Toast newsletter about that, that like, so many people can turn DOR into like a new diet plan, not necessarily to restrict like to lose weight, or make their child lose weight. But just as that really inflexible black and white thinking, that is what diet culture thrives on. And so like, I spend a lot of time with my clients just constantly being like, zoom out, widen the lens, what is the end goal? Yeah, how do you think that choice is gonna affect your relationship, I do not care what your kid eats, I do not like, I don’t care, because it’s not gonna, it doesn’t affect them in the long run, you know, in the same way that as we’re learning, for intuitive eating, or recovery and eating disorder, that like, no one meal is going to make or break your kid’s nutrition. And so how important like, don’t get hung up on those on those sticky points, just like keep moving through those, and really try to just keep remembering the relationship and the trust that you’re building. And, you know, like, it’s not about, it’s not about like, having a perfect diet, it’s about a positive relationship with food over their life.
Laura Thomas
There is no such thing as a perfect diet. You know, kids need, you know, that, the more we try and micromanage and control what our kids are eating, the further and further, we can push them towards a having a shitty relationship with food, and, and be what people would call fussy eating, or picky eating, or fatty eating, or whatever it is, because kids want autonomy when it comes to the foods that they’re, you know, when kids want autonomy, because they don’t have a lot of autonomy, right? So anywhere that they can gain more autonomy, which is often you know, they can decide, like, is literally is this going in my body or not? Right? Yeah. And so if they don’t feel like they have a lot of autonomy, then, you know, that’s where we see challenges with the like, in terms of their eating. And so where we if we, you know, if we can, yes. Like, I’m not sure if I like articulating myself, well here. But I guess I really appreciated what you were saying about, you know, I often think about the what as being the parent decides what goes on the plate, but you’ve kind of moved up a level and you’re saying what the parent actually decides what comes in the house, so that you’re kind of applying the what at a slightly, you know,
Kristen Scher
Macro?
Laura Thomas
Macro level, that’s exactly it. And I think that’s such a helpful way of framing it. And because, because what you’re doing then is you are allowing them to have and I think, you know, age developmentally appropriate autonomy is important here. And we can kind of get to that point, right? Like, you know, it’s the same like, today at lunchtime, I’d like, you know, pulled out some, like frozen mango chunks for Avery to have with his lunch. And he saw some plums in the fridge and he was like plum. So it’s like, yeah, bud. Like it, it doesn’t matter, like, and I’m giving him that control. And then he had his mango for a snack later. So you know, that’s, that’s just another example. So I like yeah, kind of, kind of, you know, taking a more macro approach, like you were saying to the what aspect of things. Here’s another place that I feel that parents get tripped up with the what aspect of things is, you know, if we’re saying, which we haven’t said, but this is kind of a, maybe, actually, an important point to mention is that, you know, part of, or one of the assumptions here, not assumptions — that’s not the right word. But if we’re fostering, or trying to foster a positive relationship with food, part of that means allowing access to all foods. So all, kind of an all foods fit model. And oftentimes, we’ll say, Let’s allow kids to have the dessert their dessert with the rest of their meal, and allow them regular access to sweet foods. So where parents often get tripped up, and even if it’s not, you know, we’re not talking about sweet foods, it could be like, Okay, well, what if they only eat the potatoes? If we’re letting them, if we’re deciding what they’re eating, if we’re providing, they’re deciding, and what if they only decide to eat the potatoes? Or the pasta? Or the cookie? What then?
Kristen Scher
Yeah.
Laura Thomas
I’m asking you.
Kristen Scher
Oh, yeah, I’m saying then they only eat the, they only eat the potatoes, or the pasta or the cookie, or they have two bites of the potato, and then they’re done. And that’s okay. That’s normal. And, you know, I, I’m sure, like, I know, you’ve said this on other podcasts, but like, of your podcast, but that, you know,
Laura Thomas
No one has listened to my podcast in a long time, so it’s fine.
Kristen Scher
Anyway, but that kids, their body isn’t going to be like made or broken in one meal, they get their nutrition over a long period of time. If they’re not eating their broccoli tonight, you may might have made broccoli three days ago, you know, like, and they had their broccoli then. In the same way that if I, you know, ate pizza, three days in a row, I then don’t feel like pizza then like today when you’re like tacos or pizza, and I was like tacos today, I had pizza recently, I don’t feel like having pizza. So I think, I think it’s okay, I think kids, especially young kids naturally have like a dive in their appetite. Personally, I don’t think and I’ve definitely noticed in my own family, that that dinnertime meal is not when my daughter who’s five is very food driven. You know, she comes home from school, and she’s starving between 3:00 and 4:30 is when she wants to eat. And so what that has looked like, isn’t me, I feel like this is also like, where the nuance comes in where, you know, someone, some people might say, well, then you say, Here’s your snack and that’s it until dinner. And you know, it’s important to feel hungry at the table, XYZ. And I think that’s when she’s hungry, even when I’ve made her wait, you know, like when I’m like, This is what we had. And now we’re busy, we’re out of the park, whatever until dinnertime, it doesn’t actually change how much she’s eating at that time. Her time for her body is after school, it makes sense. It’s the same way that I think that we come home and we want to eat dinner after a long day, because that is when we’re finally attuning to ourselves. And it happens earlier for kids who are in school. And so I make sure that like she has almost like a dinner meal after school. And then naturally, she’s less hungry for my dinner and our family dinner time. And then we have a night snack before bed. So that also I feel like a night snack is helpful in terms of answering that question when people are like what happens if they only have the potatoes? That, you know, let them have as much potatoes as they want. And then offer a night snack before bedtime. And, and you know, maybe by then they’re hungry again. And that often is the case for my kid that like they’re not that hungry for dinner. But they usually want a night snack and sometimes they say they don’t um, and I make sure that night snack isn’t just like, where all the fun food comes out. I think that’s another hiccup that people have is they have dinner and then their night snack is like kid food. It’s like that’s when the popcorn and the ice cream and the cookies come out. And that’s fine sometimes but if all if you’re saving those foods, you’re not bringing those foods to actual meals, then they know that those foods are coming and like they don’t want to fill up on the other food because they know that they want to have room for the fun nighttime food. So sometimes you know, we have popcorn on the table with our soup. And sometimes we have popcorn for night snack and vice versa. Sometimes we just have like cheese and crackers or sometimes like she’ll just want an apple or some pickles at night snack or whatever. So it’s not just the fun food at night, and not fun food for dinner.
Laura Thomas
Okay, first of all, I love the term night snack. I don’t know why it like in my head it’s like a bedtime snack or supper. But like night snack just sounds cool. Like, secondly, I’ve just spotted my book on your shelf, which is very cool.
Kristen Scher
It’s right by Roxane Gay’s book and Dr. Sabrina Strings’s book. Got all the good ones there.
Laura Thomas
Okay, I mean, I feel like I am not worthy to be in their company, maybe move it down a shelf. But anyway, but that’s cool. And so yeah, there were, there were so many things. I was like, just trying to hold on to all of the different things. But I think like the takeaway thing and, you know, going back to what we were saying before about, like, how this model needs to evolve, where a lot of the evidence, and the clinical focus is at the moment is around what is called responsive feeding, right? And what you have just described is such a perfect example of what it means to be responsive in relation to feeding. So I often, well I don’t stop talking about this idea that so much of what we do when we feed children is led by an adult agenda. And we view kids feeding through this lens of adultism is that like, I think that’s like the term? Where we think that they are just little, you know, tiny adults, and they should eat the way that adults do. And so we kind of we extrapolate that to like, mealtime should be the same, the types of foods that they should like, should be the same, the amounts of foods that they should eat should meet this kind of adult standard. And that’s all that’s all bullshit. And if we can kind of like, you know, shift that lens to, to, to, you know, and kind of understand a little bit more about how, you know, what children need and, and kind of like, a bit more about their appetite and what’s appropriate for different developmental stages, then we can kind of see that we can be more responsive to them, basically, right? And we can, we can, actually, you don’t need to know all of that stuff, you just kind of need to pay attention to what’s going on right? And put down your adult agenda.
Kristen Scher
Oh I love that! Put down your adult agenda. I love that.
Laura Thomas
Yeah! And, and that, that’s, that’s, you know, that’s going to help foster more trust in the child, it’s going to let them know that you trust them and that they can trust themselves, it’s going to help them develop a positive relationship with food, it’s going to allow them to tune into their hunger and fullness cues, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Kind of, I don’t know what this monologue was about, apart from to say that, it’s, you know, it’s so important to follow their lead. And if they are, you know, hungry and tired when they get in from school, give them like, like a snacky dinner kind of situation, you know, give them like a mini-meal rather than just, you know, I don’t know what, like an apple right? An apple’s not gonna, that’s not gonna cut it at that point. And then, yeah, you know, that takes the pressure off of that dinner meal to let them kind of figure out okay, yeah, maybe I’ll have a couple of mouthfuls of potato and then I’m done. I’ve kind of lost my train of thought there. I hope that basically makes sense. But this responsive piece is really key. The other thing that I have I have kind of circled, like I mentioned before, is this idea of a balance. So kind of still keeping it in the realm of the what. Balance, I find like a tricky concept to talk about because it can be, it can be turned into another rule, right? So I’d love to hear your interpretation of balance.
Kristen Scher
Yeah. I feel like it has been most helpful for me as a tool. Especially I feel like the times that I bring up a balance and talking about like meal components is when people come to me and they say like, my kid is a grazer, you know, they just want to eat all day long. I’m constantly finding them in the fridge. I’m constantly finding them,
Laura Thomas
They always want snacks, they’re demanding snacks constantly.
Kristen Scher
They always want snacks. Yes. And I say that, that is usually a sign for me that the parent needs to, like, make them…I don’t know why in my head, I’m like, you know, you’re like gathering a bouquet to hand to them. But I that’s kind of like, they’re just needing a little bit of help to figure out why they’re not being satisfied. Um, and while also allowing room for like, it’s okay to eat for boredom, it’s okay to eat for comfort, it’s okay to eat for stress, like, you know, also kind of tracking what your kid is going through. But if you’re not-, like, there’ll be certain weeks where if I’m really busy, I notice that my kiddo is really, really grazing or like, so I have two kids, I have an eight-month-old. When I was first home with the baby, Clara my oldest was just like constantly in the pantry. And that’s, you know, it’s, that’s fine. Number one, that’s fine. Number two, I’m like, Oh, I’ve been kind of slacking on my duties. I haven’t been making her an assort- Like making her a meal, I haven’t been presenting a meal offering the meal as the parent. And so she’s kind of felt a little insecure. She hasn’t said that. She’s like, happy to go raid the pantry. But she feels like it’s her job to get herself food. And so that’s a little cue to me to go get a plate, put some turkey slices, put some cheese, put some apples, put some crackers, and bring that to her. So while she had maybe the bag of popcorn out on the couch, I go get these other things. So I noticed, okay, there’s some fat, there’s some protein, there’s some, you know, a crunchy fibre kind of carb, there’s, so I’m just kind of hitting all the bases, and I bring it to her and I put her popcorn on the plate as well. So I’m not taking away what she’s grazing and snacking on. I’m just adding these other things. Sometimes she’s not into them, most of the time, if that’s what’s been happening, and I offer a varied plate of balance, she immediately starts eating the other things too. And then, so that’s kind of where it comes into play for me. Or when I’m like in a food jag and I don’t know what to make for dinner. And I’m like, we’ve had pasta every night, like, all we have is more pasta, what can I do to spice things up? Oh, I’ll add, we’ll make a tuna noodle salad. I’ll add some you know, we’ll make it into that. How do I, and that’s not just for their satisfaction, but for my satisfaction as well. Like sometimes adding in that balance of food ups the satisfaction.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, yeah, I think that that’s, to me, balance the concept of balance. And I’ve I’ve run into this before where I’m like, oh my god, it’s not the balanced snack, or it’s not a balanced meal. And then you can, it’s that diet culture, that diet mentality kind of creeping back in that you kind of have to check yourself on. Because where balanced, I think is really important is like you say for satisfaction rather than nutrition per se, if that makes sense. Because if snacks, you know, if you’ve if you notice that your kid is constantly, like you say kind of, you know, just like kind of shuffling around the kitchen being like looking at the fridge being like it ehh and like asking for snacks a lot or, yeah, like that, that could be a sign that there is, you need to up that sort of satisfaction factor that you need to find a bit of balance in the in the foods that you’re offering. However, I don’t want people to feel like every single meal or snack has to be balanced. You know, goldfish on their own are a perfect, they’re perfectly fine. And oftentimes you can offer all of the balanced things and they might not eat it. So that’s the other thing. But I think it’s a helpful kind of framework to hold in your mind. I don’t think it’s like something that you have to apply really rigidly.
Kristen Scher
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely not a checklist of like, gotta make sure I have everything for each meal. I just use it like, yeah, like you said, like, as just a tool if I’m noticing some things. And I think also, I guess I was just gonna kind of go on a grazing tangent that, that, especially clients with older kids, where they’re like, they keep taking, you know, bags of food to their room, or whatever. And often, I’m, it’s like, I sometimes like sometimes we just like to be alone and taking care of ourselves, and it’s okay, if food is that is one way to do that. Sometimes it’s because they know that you’re going to judge them for the amount of food that they’re eating. So like, double-check, like, Are you truly allowing all foods, are you bringing those foods that they prefer to the meals, and then I also just like will be like, it’s okay, if they want to go have like a bowl of ice cream in the room. I like to have a bowl of ice cream, like, on the couch away from my kids like, you know, like, that’s pleasure.
Laura Thomas
That, like, night snack once your kid has gone to bed? It’s the best snack of the day.
Kristen Scher
Yes! Right? Right. And so like maybe your 15-year-old or 12-year-old just like wants to be by themselves taking care of themselves having a moment. And that’s okay. I just, what I do have conversations tell like I tell them to like, you know, eating alone secretively, I, you know, have a conversation with your kid that’s like, just like so you know, like, I will never judge you for what you eat. It is okay to eat however much you want. Two things I, especially for like younger kids, like my kids age, I don’t want you eating in your room without telling me because that’s a choking hazard. I don’t want to come upstairs and see that you’ve been you know, I didn’t even know you were eating and now you’re choking like, you know. So especially for younger kids that’s my big thing for sneaking food. And also like hygiene. Like, you know, my spouse had a mouse in his bedroom while he was younger, because he like brought the cereal because he wanted to eat the cereal. Yeah, no, it wasn’t like a pet mouse. It was like he was eating in his room where he felt comfortable, comfortable and unjudged eating. And you know, mice show up if you start hoarding food in your room. So it’s like, it’s both. It’s like a hygiene thing. We don’t want ants, we don’t want mice. And a safety thing, we don’t want choking. But also, it’s okay. Like if you want to go have an ice cream sundae in your room to just be alone and eat that’s fine. I also want to make sure that you feel safe eating that ice cream sundae in front of me. And I think it’s important for parents to eat the way that we eat without people watching in front of our kids. Like, they need to know that people can eat, you know, 10 to 12 Oreos, and that’s it’s okay. Yeah, it’s not the end of the world.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I think I so many important points and what you were saying there, but, um, I think that piece around modelling healthy relationship with food to your kids so that they don’t feel judged or shamed or pressured or any of the things to eat a certain way, or that they have to eat it like in this clandestine way in their room? Like, yeah, it’s it’s so key and why it’s really helpful if if you’re noticing these patterns in your kids to make sure that you’ve, you’ve done your own work around food. Yes, so yeah, we’ve talked about the what, we’ve talked a little bit, we’ve kind of touched on the when and kind of that piece around being responsive to the when. Because I don’t know about you, but I see a lot of people. Okay, let me back up a second. Because, what, what I think people don’t, I don’t think people understand why the when is important. So let me try and explain it. I think it’s important to have scheduled yet flexible meal and snack times. Maybe not scheduled, but like predictable.
Kristen Scher
Predictable, that’s a great word, yeah.
Laura Thomas
Predictable meals and snacks. So that children feel secure in the fact that if they aren’t hungry right now, and don’t want to eat much, that there will be another opportunity in two or three or however many hours time to have something to eat again. So that’s why it’s the parent’s job to kind of set that rhythm, shall we say, of meals and snacks. Again, though, and again, I guess I should say that that also helps us prevent kids from running into that more of a grazing pattern, where they’re just basically constantly eating at a low level all the time. And that’s important to help them maintain that or feel that predictability in hunger and fullness as well, that hunger and fullness is kind of like a wave, it goes up, and then it goes down as you eat food. And then it comes back again. And I think it is important that kids learned to feel comfortable with a little bit of hunger. I’m not saying starving. But they, they need, you know, they need to get familiar with a little bit of discomfort around hunger. Does that make sense?
Kristen Scher
I think that makes sense. And I think it just like how I was saying, like, sometimes, sometimes you have to shift the parent the when schedule, because they are in tune with their hunger cues. You’re just, as the parent you’re ignoring them, you know what I mean?
Laura Thomas
Yes and this is the tricky part, I think to kind of get across is that what is more important than sticking to like a rigid meal and snack schedule is being responsive. So if you notice that kids are constantly hungry half an hour before snack time, in inverted commas, move the freakin snack earlier.
Kristen Scher
Exactly.
Laura Thomas
That’s where I think, yeah, the response, the responsive piece is, is key. Well, I guess what we’re trying to say is having you know, some sort of…I guess it’s the difference between, like having a bowl of popcorn or chips or whatever it is just out on the table to help yourself to throughout the afternoon, which we do sometimes, right? That happens, like on a weekend or whatever, but like, for the most part having sort of set this is your snack. And then okay, snack time is over. And then this is the next snack, like having it as an eating occasion. Rather than, like, just something that is continuous. Does that make sense?
Kristen Scher
That just makes sense. Yeah, yeah. It’s I’m thinking about, like, when you go to a party, and there’s just like food out the whole time, you end up kind of not tuning into your own hunger, you know, and you’re just kind of eating social, it almost makes it more like social eating, if you’re just grazing all day. But you’re not like there are so many subtle hunger cues that if you’re just kind of topping off all day, you’re never getting to check, like figure out what those subtle hunger cues are, or what those I’m really not hungry cues are. Yeah, so yeah, that makes sense. I think that’s good to clarify.
Laura Thomas
I hope I haven’t confused things more by saying that.
Kristen Scher
No, no, no, I think that makes sense. I mean, I think what we’re trying to also like, if we’re talking about parents, I think so often by the time someone becomes apparent, their own schedule of eating is so affected by diet culture, that like some people before they have a kid, they eat breakfast, they eat lunch at two, they eat dinner at eight, and they don’t eat in the middle and that’s not, that is not a good way for a kid to eat. You know what I mean? So I think it also helps kind of remind grownups that the way that a lot of grownups who have grown up dieting eat is not normal, or what’s best for bodies, and it’s especially not normal or best for growing bodies. Like I often find that when I first was like, feeding my kids snacks, and then they eat a lot, you know, I probably should be eating when they’re eating. And so I it kind of also reminds us that like, we humans need to be eating more food than we think that we need to be eating.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, and probably more frequently as well.
Kristen Scher
Yeah, exactly.
Laura Thomas
Rather like because what ends up happening is we get to the point where we’re like, famished. And then because we’re in kind of like a deficit we need to eat more to feel full, and then we can end up feeling kind of gross afterwards. Whereas if we were to like have had a snack, then we might be able to eat a meal that feels more comfortable. And so it’s probably the same amount of food in total. It’s just in a way that is more responsive to our own bodies.
Kristen Scher
Yeah. And not putting your body through that pendulum of like, starting to
Laura Thomas
Those are huge swings.
Kristen Scher
Yeah.
Laura Thomas
There’s, there’s so much that we can learn from our kids around food. I think so, so what we’re saying here, is that having like that, predictable, you know, yeah, that predictable pattern of meals and snacks, where we kind of have a loose schedule around what you know, when we’re going to offer them. You know, like lunch might always be at 12, for example. But that there’s, that flexibility is key and being responsive. If you notice that your kid is perpetually hungry at 1130 move lunch earlier, or have a bigger snack. You know, mid-morning, depending on like, if they’re still napping and stuff like that.
Kristen Scher
Right, totally 100%
Laura Thomas
One, one thing that I kind of get, like, warmed up about and I don’t know, if you see this advice as well, but there’s often advice that, you know, younger kids need to go two hours between meals and snacks and older kids for like, more like three to four hours between meals and snacks. Like, have you do you see stuff like that going around? And what’s your thinking on them? ,
Kristen Scher
Yeah, um I? I think it won’t, One it depends on the kid. And I just keep thinking back. Like when I was in elementary school, we didn’t have snack time.
Laura Thomas
What?
Kristen Scher
We didn’t have snack time and I remember being in so much like hunger pain lined up waiting to go to the lunchroom that I was nauseous, at, like six and seven. And it’s, it just makes me sad. But I mean, like, so I feel like, a lot has changed in a good way that like, you know, snack time is like a thing now, especially for elementary school, but, and some high schools have snack time, like, in high school, you know, which is great, but I don’t it’s definitely not across the board or like, I think people do assume that once you get to a certain age, you should be able to go without food for four to five…
Laura Thomas
A long time.
Kristen Scher
Yeah. And, and I think like, I think pretty much everyone should check in every two hours to see where they are in terms of hunger.
Laura Thomas
I was even gonna say that, like, younger kids like, Excuse me, like toddlers, who may you know, they may naturally be more in inverted commas, grazers, but I don’t know that they necessarily aren’t grazers per se. They just need to eat. Because grazing in my mind is what we talked about earlier. It’s that almost like continuous, no breaks in between, right? Not those set meals and snacks. What I’m thinking about is, you know, toddlers, maybe preschoolers who maybe need to eat like every 90 minutes. But yeah, the difference between you know, grazing is the difference between grazing and then having those set meals and snack times that we were talking about before, right?
Kristen Scher
Right. Yeah, that it’s okay too, every 90 minutes. If your kid is hungry every 90, they have small stomachs, they burn energy really fast. So I like yeah, absolutely. I think it’s only if you’re just like walking around with like, a fanny pack of chips. You know, that’s, that’s crazy. But yeah, I think it’s okay to have foodie snacks meals even more frequently than two hours.
Laura Thomas
I think so. Probably someone’s gonna like at me now, but whatever. Some like, you know someone from ESI is going come after me. Um, so okay, so we’ve covered the what, we’ve covered the when, we’ve covered the where. No, we haven’t covered the where. Any thoughts on that?
Kristen Scher
I think this is where a lot of like the classism and like, you know, unintentional but racism comes into play, that not all families eat at the same time. Not all families can sit around a table, not all families. And, you know, that it just feels very like Norman Rockwell. And we come together at the table, and we eat our meals and snacks. And that’s great. I love it for if that’s your family, awesome. But if your family has to eat staggered meals, or like, it’s also the kind of thing where I feel like people make such a big deal about breakfast and dinner. And like, if the only time that you as a parent have is like, I don’t know why I am, like, like snack time. You know, like, if you’re between like, you know, if you have a night shift, right. And the only time that you can have a meal with your kid is that afternoon snack for them before you head in to work at the hospital or whatever, then like, that’s fine. You don’t have to have breakfast, lunch and dinner with your kids, whatever you have with them is fine. And also, if you’re eating at a drive-thru, you know, that’s fine. You don’t have to be, you can be in your car, and still connecting with each other in a positive way while you’re feeding your kids reliably. You don’t have to be at that table.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, yeah, I think there’s, there’s so much to unpack in this. In nutrition in general, this idea of like family meals and everyone eat together at the table is held up as being the sort of be all and end all of nutrition and like family meals are so good for you. Which I’m not saying that they’re not. There’s also a tonne and tonne of privilege in that, like, not everybody has a table that they can sit down to. And I think we need to be really mindful of that when I mean, I’m just talking to like nutritionists in general here. But like, yeah, be really mindful to that when we’re doling out that advice. And it’s so funny that you like said Norman Rockwell, because that’s Naureen put up a post a while back about family meals. And I was like, I wish we would stop talking about family meals like they were everyone’s living in a Norman Rockwell. But but anyway, we also have to remember that for some families, if they have a difficult dynamic as a family, if there’s a lot of conflict, if there’s a lot of stress, if there’s a you know, if you know, there’s a parent who is struggling with their own mental health, I’d say then family meals might actually cause a lot more stress and pressure. Or if there’s, you know, authoritarian parenting around food. Yeah. Then that, you know, that could cause more friction in the feeding relationship. And, and the dinner table might not feel like a safe place, and it might not help the child eat their meal. Yeah. What else is there to say on that?
Kristen Scher
I think that like, there’s also separately but in terms of the where, a lot of people are like, my kid never wants to the table. What about, like, my kid loves to eat in the living room, she like wants to be watching TV. And I get it, I get it. Anytime my kids are not around, where am I eating? On the couch and eating with my bowl on the couch, it’s more comfortable. You know, I’m eating, I’m alone, like my spouse is at work, my baby is…it just, it feels sometimes silly to come to the table to eat. Anyway. So part of it is like being realistic. Like it makes sense that your kid wants to eat at their little art table where they’re also colouring. And it’s, it’s, it’s hard. It’s something we struggle with, like, but I do you know, my kid’s also five, they tend to spill things you know, like, there are things that I’m like, okay, for me, let’s just have dry foods in the living room. But um, I think that’s where the responsive feeding comes in where like she gets she’s getting something from being able to have that autonomy to feel like that big kid. She sees me eating on the couch. I think that’s another thing that’s like when we say one thing and do another you know, no we eat at the table, we eat at the table, we eat at the table. As soon as she’s watching her show. I come in with my you know, whatever, whatever snack I’m eating. And like they’re not…they see that! They see that it’s, why’s it one way for you and not for me? And in some ways, I’m like, Well, it’s because you spill your milk and then the milk is on the rug. And yet, it was super smelly, we had to that to do that whole vinegar and coffee thing. Like, it was it was an ordeal. So do not get milk on a rug. But anyway, um, but like, where can you add in that flexibility? So when now it’s like, when we have Movie Night, we do our pizza and our popcorn in there. And yes, we make her sit at the coffee table, put down a towel. But like just kind of being aware of that, like, are you holding them to a standard that you don’t hold for yourself? And is that really fair? And I’m not saying let’s all just sit on the couch and never have food at the table. Like, that’s not, I’m not saying like, now I’m like, oh, gosh, are people going to come at us for things? But I’m saying that there can be a blend of both. And yes, my kid has a hard time turning off the TV to come to dinner. And we have like a framework or guide that like, okay, during the school week, there’s no TV after dinner. So you know, and you have to, like we do say you have to come to the table, you don’t have to eat. The only thing we require is that we come to the table and we talk about our favourite part of the day. That’s it. You don’t have to touch your food. You do have to show up to this one family, like meeting time that happens to be dinner. And I think that helps. I know some people use like, timers or whatever. Do what like works for you. I think that that’s kind of punitive. Sometimes I even feel like my like, let’s just talk about our day to her feels punitive. And I get that. And like, I’m it’s just but I’ve also noticed that like, when the TV is done after dinner, she’s more likely to come because she knows it’s over anyway, like, and I also try to make sure that like I can I go I see where she is in her show. I try to time it so that when her show is done, that’s when she comes to dinner. I’m not like pulling her. I would be mad if someone pulled me away from Outlander, to jump to another room. That you know, like I think so many times parents don’t think about kids as like full humans. But just as this small kid who doesn’t deserve like the same respect that we treat other people with and I so I just there’s a lot of like, pulling back and like what am I expecting of my kid? Why do I expect them to be the superhuman who eats perfectly, sits perfectly, when I don’t do that myself.
Laura Thomas
And I mean, you’re a big nerd for Alfie Kohn and I love to and something that he talks about in his books is the fact that children are not adults in training. They’re not, you know, like, just biding time until they become these fully-fledged beings, you know, right. They are humans in their own right, and they have wants and needs and desires and all of those things that, you know, they deserve to have respected and responded to.
Kristen Scher
Right. Exactly. Yeah.
Laura Thomas
So anyway, that’s an aside. But, um, another thing that I think about when it comes, I guess this is sort of the where, but maybe meal times more generally is just, well, two things. The fact that we need to have realistic expectations about kids sitting at the table in the first place. Like for some kids, are neurodivergent or kids that are younger, who might just need to take a break from being at the table, where being at the table is a lot for them. And the expectations we have around things like what’s good manners, and what’s good behaviour in inverted commas are just completely unrealistic for that child. And this is my view anyway, but I think it’s fine for kids. I think, you know, if they need it, we should encourage kids to get up and take a break from being at the table. And like I’m not saying it should be a free for all, but I think that kids should, should have should feel comfortable and safe enough to say, I would need to get down for a minute and then maybe come back to my meal in five minutes or so. I don’t know, how do you feel about that?
Kristen Scher
I feel like that’s totally, totally on point. And I also feel like even, I just feel like anything that any rule that is making connection time unpleasant and punitive or like a power play, it’s never going to turn into a good thing. So like, like I said, like, my kid is five. They might be neurodivergent, we’re finding out so that there is
Laura Thomas
Such a fun age to be like are they aren’t they? Are they?
Kristen Scher
So we’re in the process of that. Anyway, so there might be some of that at play. But also, they’re, they’re five, therefore, they’re, like we said, at dinnertime, they’re not as hungry. So when they say like, they’re done, even if it’s been two minutes, I trust her. And like, I’m not going to make her sit at the table. I’m not. In the same way that like when you go out to fancy dinner, and you’re with a bunch of relatives, and they’re just like, drinking forever, and you’re like, I just want to go home and go to bed, it doesn’t feel good, you’re not gonna all of a sudden be like, no, it’s such a great connecting moment. And so I just, I, I mean, I’m sure someone’s gonna come at me and say that that’s like, just permissive parenting, but, um, I, I’m an Alfie Cohen, lover, and disciple, and I just don’t know, I embody trust. They talk a lot about like, like, long-lasting change or like positive change, or is never going to be rooted in shame, like, and I feel that way about relationships too. Like, I’m not going to make my kid sit at a table, sadly, and feeling like their parent is making them do something that they feel is not reasonable. Because it’s not going to turn into like, all of a sudden, she loves to have 20-minute dinners with her parents. That’s not, that isn’t how that happens. How that happens is being a responsive parent, being responsive with feeding and having a positive, loving, open, trusting relationship. So that way, when she’s 10, or even on days, like when she happens to be hungry at dinner, and it’s a dinner that she really likes, we sit for 20 minutes, she takes as long to eat as we do. And so like giving her that flexibility of like, I trust you, if you’re here, and we’re having a great time, like, that’s great. We’re having a great time. And I also make sure that dinner isn’t the only time we’re connecting as a family.
Laura Thomas
Yes. So much pressure that you know, mealtimes are the time that you have to connect. Mealtimes can be shit shows, they are shit shows in my house frequently. Okay, so yeah, I was just gonna, I was gonna just say, you know, similarly that, you know, Dave and I will let Avery get down from the table and go play for a bit. And he, he might wander off for two minutes. And then typically, you know, he’ll come back and want to eat a couple more mouthfuls, and then go play for a few minutes. And, you know, the boundary that we hold is that, you know, we’re having dinner, if you want to get down and go play you, you can play we can kind of see him. We live in a tiny flat, we can see what he’s into. And, you know, for the duration that we’re eating, he’s welcome to come and go. You know, we don’t let him run around with food in his mouth, because that’s totally safe. But yeah, you know, otherwise, like, that’s, that’s the boundary that we have. And, you know, when when we’re done eating, or when he tells us he’s all done, we respect that and put the food away. And that’s our meal time or snack time.
Kristen Scher
I think that’s also a good clarification. Like, sometimes my kid will put something in their mouth and try and I’m like you know, that’s a boundary. No, you cannot eat and run, eat and walk. If you’re eating at this mealtime, you’re sitting here. If you’re, if you’re wanting to move, but you’re eating, sit. If you’re not eating, yeah, go play. That’s fine and come back. And the other thing with her and her age is I want someone to come play with me. I want someone to come play with me. No, we’re at dinner and we’re eating. It doesn’t mean that now they’re those like the tyrant who gets to decide everything, you know? That’s the other thing.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, and, and as well as the where, you know, we don’t like you, we don’t insist on all meals being at the table, like, generally our main meals, yeah, they’re at the table, but snacks like, we sit on the floor, we, you know, are in the lounge, we’re like wherever. Out and about. I remember listening to a podcast once about, like, responsive feeding, and this person was talking and they were like, a real DOR purist, and they were like, every day after nursery school, my child comes home, and they sit at the table to have their snack and I was like, No, you go to the park, have your snack in the park. Like, you know, we’re like in the car, like, you don’t have to be home at the table. That’s, that’s taking these what is meant to be, well, maybe it wasn’t meant to be a flexible structure but what I’m saying needs to be a flexible structure, too far. And if we don’t give our kids autonomy, and some sense of agency, that’s where we’re going to run into conflict in the feeding relationship. That’s where we’re going to get more fussy eating picky eating, potentially eating disorders. That’s what’s going to, yeah, it’s going to contribute to them having a less positive relationship with food. Right?
Kristen Scher
Yeah, it backfires.
Laura Thomas
It backfires. Thank you. Um, I feel like we’ve we haven’t talked about the kids side of things. The whether and how much, but I’m not sure there’s too much to say on that. Except we need to trust our kids that they’ve got that side of things. But maybe you have more things to say on that?
Kristen Scher
I do find that people are like, when you’re like, you know, they’re only eating the potato and then they want more potato. What do I do? Like, give them more potato. That’s how I feel. I know, like you said, Ellyn Satter sometimes has like, very specific, like, no more than one serving of dessert at dinner but at certain snacks, you can have unlimited. And I say, unlimited. That’s me. That’s me as a person who’s had an eating disorder. That’s, that’s, I think, I trust my kid. And it has worked out where, like, what I often see with my, with my clients when they’re like, but I’m so worried what if they eat that much, and then like, they feel really sick. And what I say is, I would rather them have those food data experiments now at home when they’re young before diet culture has like, grabbed them. Then when they’re in college, and they’re like, experimenting with food for the first time when all that other added shame is on there. I want my kid like literally the other day, I was nursing the baby. Clara came over she had a pint, no more than that, like a gallon of mint chocolate chip ice cream and a scooper. Not a scooper, a spoon. She was like, Mom, can I have ice cream? And I said, Yeah, do you want to go get me the bowl. She was like, I think I’m just gonna eat it out of here. She’s five, the idea of having to go get a bowl, figure out how to scoop it herself. She saw that I was nursing that I couldn’t just like, come make her the ice cream, which is normally what she asks. She’s like, I think I think I’m just going to eat it out of here. And guess what I let her. This is a five-year-old who has six-year molars coming in and I was just, I’m not going to be like, we don’t eat out of that because I have eaten out of the ice cream carton. And this might be something great. But anyway, the point is, I trusted her. I know how much ice cream she can eat. I know how little ice cream she, and I kind of wanted to see what happened. Guess what? She had the same amount of ice cream that she would have eaten if I put in a bowl. And then she said I’m done. And I said can you can you put it back because it’ll melt. Okay. But I want her to have that experience now, before the body image shit comes in, and am I’m allowed to curse? Yeah, I’m like, I’ve heard you’ve
Laura Thomas
Done it like 10 times just even in this episode alone.
Kristen Scher
Yeah, so that’s, I mean, that’s just personally how I feel I’d rather them do it. And I don’t mean it to sound like I want them to like sometimes people say that horrible thing that like if they’re going to drink do it in my house. That’s not this because drinking is not the same thing. Drinking alcohol is not the same thing as eating food, you know? And so on. I just, I just trust my kid. And I’ve been doing this, she’s been learning this and how to eat intuitively from the get go. And so she’s a really competent, flexible eater. And so like, obviously, that’s not going to work right away, if you’re starting from scratch with this. And I say work in that, like, it’s gonna work, they’re either gonna eat it all and maybe feel sick, or maybe feel fine. Or, you know, we don’t know how they’re gonna feel. Um, but it might make you as the parent uncomfortable. Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. Yeah. And I just feel like it’s important to give kids the space and freedom to actually have experiences with food and their body themselves.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I absolutely. And, and the, the flip side of this, as with adults, if we don’t give them those experiences, and opportunities to explore, you know, desserts and sweet foods, and, you know, those tend to be the foods that parents feel really uncomfortable offering their kids. Yeah. If we don’t give them those experiences, and don’t let them learn how to self regulate around those foods, then, and we don’t let them have any experience with those foods, and what’s going to happen is, they will go to a birthday party, or they will, you know, when they start earning a bit of pocket money, or like they have more independence around food, they, they’re not going to know how to trust their bodies, they’re not going to know how to self regulate.. And, and either they’re going to, yeah, like at the birth, if you use the birthday party example, they might eat to the point that they feel sick, and then the adult interprets that as like, oh, they can’t be trusted around food, quitting. What we know, you know, to be true around restriction is that, you know, the harder you restrict, the harder you deprive certain foods, the more likely you are to lose your shit completely around them. And so if we can give them opportunities to learn how certain foods make their body feel, and what’s a comfortable amount for them to eat, and what tips the balance into being uncomfortable. Then, yeah, they can learn to build trust in themselves.
Kristen Scher
I feel like and I also got, I also think, too, like, I was gonna say, like, I often, like, you know, check myself like, or the parents? Would you feel the same way if they were eating a head of broccoli? You know, like, is it, is it the food that they’re eating? Or are you just you’re worried about their internal fullness cues for everything? So like, is it diet culture? Or is it like, a concern about like, something going on where they’re not, their body and their brain are not talking to each other.
Laura Thomas
That I think this is an important piece to mention, as well, I see this in my adult clients, too, which is that, you know, the idea of like, strategic exposures to sweet foods, so that they kind of can self regulate around them is not to it’s not so that they burn themselves out on that food, and never want to eat it. Because that could also become a form of restriction and kind of backfire. So yeah, just I just wanted to make that point.
Kristen Scher
And I think it’s just important to clarify like, yeah, it’s it’s not about making it a diet. It’s not about getting them to not eat those. who I am. I’m fat-positive first and foremost. So it’s never with me, it’s never going to be about your kid’s size. And keeping them from becoming a size. I’m like, yeah, fat positive first. Interested in food relationships second. So yeah, I just feel like yeah, like that was the mint chocolate chip ice cream experiment was not to be like, great, now she’s never going to eat mint chocolate chip. It was like she wants mint chocolate chip ice cream. I’m not going to get up and go make it. Let’s see how this goes. Why not? Why not? And I’m not going to judge her for it. And I think that’s the other thing is that like, like you said, like parents have to do their work. Like I’ve also I’ve experienced, you know, I’ve done the whole recovery. I’ve done the whole Intuitive Eating thing. I’ve gone through food cycles where, like, you feel like you can’t get enough of something. And then I’ve gotten to the, you know, I’ve gotten through to the other side of those things where you’re like, cool. I’m good with ice cream. Now I know it’s not that I’m never going to eat it. I eat it often. I just am not obsessed with it. And I had to eat it in a way that, you know, I listen to my body, sometimes eat a tonne. Sometimes I don’t eat any, sometimes I don’t feel like cake. Sometimes I eat, you know, multiple slices of, the point is it’s not like a thing. And so I think, but it helps that I’m a parent who had I have seen it work for myself. So it’s a lot easier to trust my kiddo.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, yeah, that’s interesting. I was just thinking, I’m not sure if like, if this necessarily relates, but something I was just thinking about with Avery, I’m not sure where exactly this has come from. But he’s been, he’s been asking for chocolate a lot lately. And I don’t know if it’s like, because Easter has, is coming up. Or if they’ve been talking to him about it at nursery, like with the oatcake thing. I don’t know, I don’t know exactly where this has come from. But so we were in the shop, and he wanted, he saw chocolate. And so we bought a bar of chocolate. And I’ve just been giving him pieces. You know, like, it’s like a bar of chocolate so I’ve been breaking off like a row and putting it on his tray with the rest of his dinner. And I just noticed the other night, he finished his bits of chocolate. And then he like, immediately asked for more. And so it’s just like, Yeah, okay, and put more out on the tray. And he didn’t touch any of that second row of chocolate. So like, I don’t know, I’m kind of like, was just breaking that down in my mind of like, I don’t know how much of that is he was kind of testing me to see if he could, you know, if I truly was letting him have as much as he wanted of that food. I don’t know, if it was like, he just was bored and he was done and like wanted to get down from the table. I don’t know if it was, what was the other thing that I was thinking? Yeah, I can’t remember, I’m not sure but like it just, and then the other day, I put the same amount of chocolate out on his tray, and he didn’t finish all of it. So like, I think it’s, it’s, we can be really nervous to allow our kids to, to or to feed our kids in this kind of way. But if we can kind of take a step back and look at what happens and just kind of observe things and be really curious, I think you can you can notice these interesting things, sometimes they’ll eat all of it and want more and eat all of the you know, the second helping, sometimes they’ll ask for more and only eat a bite of the second helping and that’s their kind of like threshold for satisfaction. Other times, like they just might not be interested in it at all. But it really speaks to, you know, their ability, their innate ability to self regulate. And then also, as long as we don’t interfere with that and inadvertently put that food up on a pedestal which makes them want much more of it usually, then, yeah, they we can just hand the reins over to them and trust that they’ve got it from there. That was a really rambley story. I’m not sure if any of, its late here. Well, and it’s been a long week. All right, are there any like closing thoughts or things that you want to say about just like, not necessarily that division of responsibility, but like feeding kids in general?
Kristen Scher
I, I just, you know, I say it all the time, but just like zoom out. Look at the big picture. And really ask yourself if you want your kid to have like a…to eat healthy food or to have a healthy relationship with food and their body. And, and I mean yeah, we I was gonna say stuff about like, diet cul-. I think I just think yeah. Oftentimes parents, it really it really is diet culture coming in and it is fatphobia coming in, and um out of out of love for their kid and out of wanting to protect them from hurt feelings. And I often talk about how it’s better to build resilience in your kid than it is to try to control your kid. Even if you feel like it’s for their own sake, control is never the answer with kids, or, or with anyone. And so focusing on, you know, building that resilience, helping kids be feel confident and trust in their own body in their own way, trust that they know how to feed themselves, that they can eat in a way that feels good to them, and that you trust them is the most important skill when it comes to food and body image, you know that like, they will trust themselves when they see that we trust them.
Laura Thomas
I love that. I really love that. I think that’s a perfect note to end things on. And yeah, I’m not even gonna add anything to that. We’re gonna wrap this thing up.
Kristen Scher
I hope it made sense.
Laura Thomas
No, it absolutely did, so much of what you said made sense. And I hope will be really like reassuring more than anything else to a lot of parents because I think one thing that that diet culture and just white supremacy culture in general does is like instils the sense of like, we need to do we need to feed our kids perfectly. Everything needs to be on point or, and that breeds a lot of like, anxiety and pressure and like all of these things. And actually, that’s really counterproductive for that feeding dynamic for the relationship that that child has with food, for your relationship with food, for your relationship with your child. So like, I think examining, and whether something is being filtered through a diet culture lens, like, is this actually about, you know, what is this actually about? And, and taking a step back looking at the bigger picture, noticing in general, is my kid like growing as I would expect them to? Are they you know? Do they have enough energy? Do they get enough sleep like, all of these things rather than, and looking at the, the pattern of what they’re eating over time, rather than focusing on in on specific individual meals and snacks? And, yeah, like, zooming out, like you were saying, okay, yeah, I’m rambling away over here. We are…
Kristen Scher
Going to bed.
Laura Thomas
I mean, it’s only eight o’clock, but yeah, I could. So we are going to record a separate bonus episode, where we go through some case studies that folks sent in through Instagram, so you can look out for that. So at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they’ve been really into. So what’s your jam at the moment?
Kristen Scher
I had had a different one picked out and then last night, I started watching Lizzo’s Watch Out for the Big Grrrls. On Amazon Video prime. It is so good. It is so good. So that is my jam. I, everyone should go watch it. It’s amazing. It’s like a competition dance show but also not a competition because all 10 of them have the potential to be Lizzo’s backup dancers. And it’s just beautiful. Big body ladies, so talented. So amazing. And Lizzo’s just like naming the fatphobia and it’s it’s so good.
Laura Thomas
I saw that you were watching this on your stories and I was like what is this? So that explains what it is. Okay, I need, I haven’t seen it yet. I know that like, I already I know she has like a new album coming out I don’t know when it’s coming out but seems like she’s doing a lot of stuff right now. It’s like she was quiet for a while, now she’s like boom I’m here.
Kristen Scher
It’s gold, it is so good. I like call my husband, come sit watch this. This is required viewing for everyone. It’s great.
Laura Thomas
I’m gonna I need to I need to get on it. Um Okay, real quick. I hope I haven’t said this in an other episode. I can never keep track of what I’ve actually said. But I’m really loving a book that was recommended by a mutual friend of ours Nicola Haggett. So Nikki recommended this book is called My Body, My Home by Caitlin Metz and Victoria Emanuela. I’ve been recommending it to all of my clients. It’s a book about embodiment, about coming home to yourself, what gets in the way of that, what can help that. But what I find is really accessible about it is it’s not like this, I mean, I’m reading another book about embodiment at the moment, and it’s dense and like, obviously, if you’re reading Niva Piran’s research that’s very, very, very dense. This is a beautifully illustrated like, not a pocket book, but like, you know, a step above a pocket book, where it’s mostly pictures with like, a lot, or illustrations with lots of like, prompts and questions and like things to think about. So it’s not like a super intense read. It’s like more one that you can dip in and out of, and just like, you’ll use it for journaling
Kristen Scher
For the night table.
Laura Thomas
Yes, exactly. Yeah. So you can just kind of flip through. Yeah, so I’ve been using it in my clinical work. Love it. Yeah. So I will link to all of those things in the show notes. Do you want to let everyone know where they can find you? How they can get in touch?
Kristen Scher
Yes, I am on Instagram @embodiedkiddos where you can talk me DM and then www.embodiedkiddos.com is where you can book with me. I do one on one consultations. And I also do workshops and webinars for schools. And I offer webinars I just with my baby, I’m with my eight-month-old, I haven’t done a webinar since she was born. But I normally offer some webinars specifically parenting tweens with body trust, talking about puberty and harm reduction and all that stuff.
Laura Thomas
Amazing. I really love your work. I really appreciate all the perspective that you’ve brought to this conversation. And I’m looking forward to doing a little bonus q&a session with you. So I’m going to get that up as soon as we can. And yeah, looking forward to part two.
Kristen Scher
I’m so excited. Thank you so much. This was really fun.
Laura Thomas
Thank you for being here.
All right, team. That’s this week’s show. If you’d like to learn more about today’s guest, then check out the show notes in your podcast player, or head to laurathomasphd.co.uk for more details or the full transcript from today’s episode. Big thanks to Joeli Kelly for editorial and transcription support. And if you need to get in touch with me then you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk or find me on Instagram @bub.appetit. And if you enjoyed today’s episode, then you can help the show reach more people by subscribing on your podcast player and sharing it with a friend. Alright team. I will catch you next Friday with a brand new episode. See you there.
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