I hope you’re buckled in because this one’s a doozy! Today I’m joined by Dr. Martha Deiros Collado, a clinical psychologist with expertise in parenting, child development and paediatric health. In this conversation, we explore how to support kids in building healthy body esteem and preserving a positive experience of embodiment. Some of the topics we cover in this episode include;
- The necessity of bringing an intersectional lens to conversations about body esteem
- Why promoting body esteem is about so much more than teaching kids they look good
- We cover BIG ideas like agency, autonomy, consent and honouring differences in identity (but don’t sweat – Martha makes these ideas super accessible)
- We touch on how letting kids have autonomy around food is so critical (and why you should let them blow their own nose!)
- And lastly, we name some of the power structures and systems of oppression that make us feel as though our bodies are not good enough in the first place
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Edited by Joeli Kelly
Transcript:
Martha Deiros Collado
Things like the dresses and the flimsy shoes and the really thin leggings for the girls and then the, you know, hard wearing shoes and the sturdy trousers for the boys. Those are passive messages that are leading our children to develop a sense of who they are. And to think these are things that are possible for me, these are things that are not, but you know, it goes both ways. Yes, we are saying to little girls, you know, look dainty and sweet. You know, maybe that tree is not for climbing because oops, you’ve ripped your leggings, or it’ll hurt your feet or whatever it is. But we’re also saying to boys being pretty is not for you. You know you can’t be colourful and dainty and want to look, you know, have sparkly clothes or you know, flowers on it. That’s not who you are, you are brown and beige, and green and blue.
Laura Thomas
Hey, friends, welcome to Don’t Salt My Game. I’m Laura Thomas. I’m a Registered Nutritionist and author of Just Eat It and How to Just Eat It. And we’re here having conversations with game changers who are flipping diet culture on its head. Today’s episode is pretty special. And we go deep into some really important concepts. So I can’t wait for you to hear that in just a minute. But first, a quick ad break.
So if you are a healthcare professional working with families or kids, then I invite you to check out the Learn with LCIE course, Raising Embodied Eaters — a new course that dives deep into what is typical feeding behaviour, why things like pressure and restriction usually backfire, and how an attuned and responsive feeding relationship helps kids hang on to that embodied trust that they have in themselves around food and their bodies. This course is made up of over 11 hours of video content plus papers and resources that you can use with families or schools. And you’ll also have the chance to ask me questions every month in our Learn with LCIE community group. It dives deep into the science of responsive feeding and equips practitioners with lots of practical tools and techniques that they can use in their own clinical practice. We also cover topics like ARFID or avoidant restrictive food intake disorder. We cover how to communicate with friends and families around food and feeding values, and how to support embodied eating in schools and in daycare settings. We also have two amazing guest lectures covering whether we really need to teach nutrition to kids and on decolonizing nutrition practice. We’re also adding a third guest lecture shortly on feeding neurodivergent kids with feeding challenges. So watch out for that. This is a course aimed at professionals working with kids but especially nutritionists, dieticians, health visitors, GPs, school nurses, occupational therapists, and speech and language therapists who are working with kids and families who might be feeling stressed, stuck or confused about their eating. To find out more about Raising Embodied Eaters, and to sign up for the course, you can follow the link in the show notes in your podcast player or head to laurathomasphd.co.uk.
Okay team, today I’m talking to Dr. Martha Deiros Collado. Martha is a clinical psychologist with expertise in parenting, child development and paediatric health. She has a deep interest in how culture, language and identity, so things like race, sexuality and gender, intersect and influence our view of the world. You’ll probably have seen Martha pop up on Instagram, she’s prolific with her posting and her content is gold. So definitely worth a follow if you don’t already. I wanted to talk to Martha about some of the ingredients that go towards building healthy body esteem, and that preserve a positive experience of embodiment in kiddos. So we’re exploring big ideas and big concepts like agency, autonomy, consent, and honouring differences in identity and loads loads more. It’s a really awesome conversation. And I love that Martha brings an intersectional lens to her work, which is often missing when we have conversations around body image. The idea of building better body image often puts the burden on the individual to love their bodies rather than pointing at the systems that tell us that there’s something wrong with our bodies in the first place. Things like racialization, anti-fatness, ableism, patriarchy, capitalism, and the list goes on. Another fallout from this apolitical body positivity message is that we tend to think that having good body image is simply about liking our bodies and feeling as though we look good. When the reality is that having a positive experience of embodiment and healthy body esteem is more about preventing eating disorders, and disordered eating. It’s about teaching kids that consent, desire, and protection are healthy parts of a sexual relationship. It’s about reducing the likelihood they’ll use self harm and illicit drugs as coping mechanisms, or feel the need to alter their bodies through plastic surgery or harmful body modification practices. It’s about their mental health and feeling heard and seen in the world. It’s about feeling safe in and connected to their bodies and giving them the tools to preserve a feeling of safety in a world that isn’t always safe. So yeah, this isn’t about helping kids to feel as though they look good. This is about so so much more than that. So with that, let’s go hear from Martha. I really hope you enjoy this episode. And as always, I’d love to hear your thoughts. You can find me @bub.appetit or @dontsaltmygame on Instagram. Okay, team, here’s Martha.
All right, Martha. To begin with, we usually do a quick fire round. So I’m gonna ask you a question and I want to hear the first thing that comes to your mind. Are you ready?
Martha Deiros Collado
Oh, god. Yeah.
Laura Thomas
Don’t be scared. It’s meant to be fun. What subject did you like best at school?
Martha Deiros Collado
Biology.
Laura Thomas
I can see that. Most refreshing beverage in your opinion.
Martha Deiros Collado
Water
Laura Thomas
Does not beat around the bush. Tacos or pizza?
Martha Deiros Collado
Tacos. Always tacos.
Laura Thomas
If you could live, I was nodding by the way. I was like, yes, I don’t know, today I feel like tacos. If you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be?
Martha Deiros Collado
Oh, no, this is a really hard one. Um, somewhere like Chile, where there are mountains and the sea. I need both.
Laura Thomas
It’s a good compromise. I like that. Do you have a hidden talent?
Martha Deiros Collado
I can play the piano. And I don’t tend to play it in front of lots of people. So I guess it’s hidden.
Laura Thomas
Yes. Okay. I did not know that about you. So I’ve been following you, that sounds really stalkerish, but yeah no, I’ve been lowkey stalking you on Instagram so I haven’t, haven’t seen that in any posts. Um, okay. Favourite flavour of cake.
Martha Deiros Collado
Lemon, kind of lemon meringue, kind of, like, you know, zesty.
Laura Thomas
Like tart.
Martha Deiros Collado
Yeah.
Laura Thomas
I have to agree with you there. And last question. What’s your favourite kitchen utensil?
Martha Deiros Collado
Ah, probably the spoon. I like a spoon. And I really like a ladel, like a, you know, deep fat spoon. I do have like a bit of, I do like spoon. Now you’ve said that. That’s really strange. But yeah.
Laura Thomas
I think it’s like it’s a really versatile implement.
Martha Deiros Collado
Yeah. I also like the shape. I often touch spoons, like I quite like,
Laura Thomas
It’s like a sensory thing.
Martha Deiros Collado
Yeah. I love a spoon, who knew?
Laura Thomas
I mean, that’s like it. That’s such a thing that babies always go for, like, yeah, not that. Yeah, it’s just like, there’s something very tactile and like, interesting about a spoon. So yeah, I’ll give you that. It’s also a very versatile implement in the kitchen. Alright, Martha, I really love your Instagram account. I’m forever sharing your posts with people. And I really wanted to get you on to think about some of the ways that we can help kids build body resilience and body esteem. And as we’ve been kind of talking about, a lot of what we see around teaching kids to love themselves is this sort of apolitical body positivity or body image kind of situation. Whereas your work looks at a lot of these issues through more of a socio political, cultural lens. So I’m just curious, first of all, if you could maybe explain why you think it’s important to bring that analysis to the conversation around kids, because it’s missing in a lot of spaces?
Martha Deiros Collado
Yeah, I think, it surprises me that it’s missing. Genuinely surprises me. I think for me, body positivity is about saying, all bodies are good bodies. And, you know, our bodies do lots of good things for us. But I think one of the things that gets missed in that is intersectionality, like ideas around race, gender, ableism. Like that just completely gets missed out sometimes. And I don’t think we can have that conversation without including all of this within the conversation, because visibility and representation matters. And if all good, all bodies are good bodies. We need to see more of that everywhere, not just white bodies. If that makes sense. So for me, it’s not just about body shape, or body size, it’s about everything skin colour, hair, you know, again, ability, like how our bodies are able or unable to do certain things and being able to say to our kids, all these things are good, like, all these things are good, they’re just different. Because when we offer kids a full acceptance of diversity, then that makes them more able to fully accept themselves with their own flaws, because they’re not seen as flaws anymore. They’re just seen as part of being a human, if that makes sense.
Laura Thomas
And I suppose what you’re kind of naming there as well, if I’m kind of reading between the lines here is, is pointing towards power structures and systems of oppression that are the actual reason why we feel as though our bodies are not good enough, not because any, you know, what, what often gets perceived as a flaw is actually, you know, something inherently wrong with us, it’s that the system and the society in the structures that were bound up in, that locate that problem as being within us rather than within the system.
Martha Deiros Collado
Absolutely. And for me, it is within the system. And if we allow children to develop critical thinking through both our questioning, you know, both our modelling of things, the way that we, you know, talk about representation, or notice when things aren’t represented, and able to help our children question with curiosity, the things that they see or the things that they don’t see. So that might include things like fashion, but also in films or TV or anything, you know, like allowing our kids to use opportunities to talk about it, then I think that’s where we’ve got the power to be able to say, I know, these are the things that we see all the time, but can we actually think about them? Can we think about whether this is something that represents humans as a whole? Can we think about what’s good or bad? What’s beautiful, what’s not? I think those are questions. So often, I will say to parents lean into that, rather than telling your child, you’re beautiful, or that’s beautiful, actually be curious and get them thinking about why they might not find, I don’t know somebody in a wheelchair attractive, like, is it because they never see it? Is it because it scares them a little bit? They don’t understand it? You know, like, the more we open that up, the more we see beneath what it’s about, because it’s so often I mean, always it’s not about the exterior, it’s about what’s happening beneath. And often it’s a fear, you know, and, yes, it for me is systemic, it is about systems of oppression, it is about power. And, you know, when we talk about body positivity, for me, it’s so much more than just the physical, it goes much, much deeper than that.
Laura Thomas
And I really love that idea that you’re bringing of, of getting curious with kids and talking about what you see and what you don’t see. But I don’t know, maybe this is my projection here. But I think that that parents are sometimes not sure how to open up those conversations, or, and this is like a kind of trend that I see on Instagram that I know that that you do so well, that sort of saying, these are just ideas that you can use, not like verbatim scripts, but because parents get so caught up in this idea that I need this, you know, perfectly scripted, structured conversation before I can start having having these conversations with my kids. So can you can you speak to that point a little?
Martha Deiros Collado
Yeah, I think you’re right. And I think that comes from wanting to grab on to something, you know,
Laura Thomas
Tangible
Martha Deiros Collado
Tangible, yes. Concrete. Because of fear. So I think for me, the first thing I would say is, if these conversations are new to you, and for many adults, they are because these are not conversations that we had with our own parents. And these are also not conversations that we’re having in society. I mean, I think it’s beautiful that you and I are having this conversation, but they’re often not talked about. They’re kind of taboos, like we know them, but it’s like the unsaid. So for me, it isn’t really about the script. It’s about just owning your vulnerability in that moment and saying, I feel a bit awkward about talking about this, just say it like, you know, nobody talked to me about people who are in a wheelchair or people who look different to me, or racism or whatever it is, you know, fat shaming, like nobody talked to me about those things. I absorbed all these messages from society. And I think it would be a really useful thing for you and I to sit together and talk about it because I want to help you think about things differently from how I’ve been thinking about them my entire life. Like these are conversations I’m having with my child. And she’s three.
Laura Thomas
I was just about to say, sorry to interrupt you, but I was just thinking like, because that’s a question that I think a lot of parents have as well is like, Oh, my kid’s not old enough to understand these ideas. So I’m, you know, when do I start introducing them? And I think what I hear you saying is, you start from the very beginning.
Martha Deiros Collado
Yes! You start from the very beginning. One of the things I always want to say to parents is, your child understands so much more than you think even when they can’t talk yet, they understand because they learn through feeling. So they feel, like when you model something, when you’re, you know, when you’re not scared, when you’re comfortable in a space, when you use words that feel like, like now, like I’m talking softly and gently and compassionately, kids get that. Kids do not associate the kind of emotional layering on to words, unless they witness it. There is no emotional layering to bodies or anything else. It’s just curiosity. Kids are just curious, mummy, what’s that? Why are they like that? You know, why don’t they have an arm, whatever it is, and that’s, it’s curiosity. And as a parent, if what happens is, you then layer fear through your response, like, we don’t say that, don’t talk about that, you know, like, move away from the person or whatever it is, if it’s in public. Then what often happens, children learn, oh, that’s not something I can talk about, oh, that’s taboo. And that’s the problem. Because the first thing you need to acknowledge is I’m a bit scared or uncomfortable, you know, this brings discomfort to my body, you name it. But in public or in spaces, I often get that question, what do I do? Or my child pointed at somebody? You, you lean in, like, just be curious. Rather than say, we don’t say that, you can just name what they’ve just said, maybe why don’t they have an arm? Or you’ve never seen somebody without two arms? I get that. We don’t see that every day, you’re being really curious about this. Okay, let’s go home and think about why maybe some people are born without an arm, or some people end up losing an arm. Let’s think about it together. This isn’t scripted. It’s not a script, it’s a let’s have a conversation later. Maybe not right now. You don’t have to have the right answer. But when somebody hears you, an adult, the other, the one without the arm, or whatever it is, they will feel seen. And visibility is so important. So as another to say, oh my God you saw me as a person. You didn’t shame me in front of your child, you didn’t run away, you didn’t tell your child, we don’t talk about that person, we don’t look at that person. That is huge. That person will be going home feeling like a human, like they should, like we should all be feeling, accepted.
Laura Thomas
Yes, yeah, that was, that was the word that was kind of in my head there, that you’re modelling acceptance of that person, you’re not, you know, pushing them further to the margins by saying don’t look, don’t you know, acknowledge this person, let’s not talk about this. You’re kind of saying yes, this person is here. And they are a human. And they have some differences to us. And let’s talk about them. And let’s openly discuss them. And there’s no playbook for that, because you’re gonna come into all kinds of different situations and scenarios that you just hadn’t legislated for. And so you can’t plan this this perfect script.
Martha Deiros Collado
No, there is no perfect script, I think the, the, you know, the framework, the ideas to hold on to are, it’s okay to say, Oh, this is a bit awkward, you know, like, oh, and I would tend to always start with, you’ve noticed, whatever, just name it, oh, you’ve noticed that person is a different body shape, that person is bigger than us. You know, that person’s in a wheelchair, name it. Just name what your child has just told you. Repeat it, reflect it back. And then tell them this is important. Let’s talk about it. You know, that’s it. You know, just saying to your child, this is a an okay conversation for us to have and telling somebody else I see you, you are acceptable, is so huge. Like, that is enough in that moment. You don’t need to do anything else.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, yeah. No, I love that. And I love that it doesn’t have to be this perfectly scripted conversation that you just can kind of, you know, hold on to a couple of key principles and model acceptance, like we were saying before, and curiosity and kind of, yeah, be guided by the kiddos a little bit as well.
Martha Deiros Collado
Absolutely.
Laura Thomas
So there, there are a couple of key principles that I really wanted to talk to you about that I’ve teased out from the likes of Niva Piran’s work on embodiment, that support positive experiences of embodiment and healthy body esteem. And I’d love if we can unpack them a little and put them into maybe more concrete and tangible terms that parents can work with as well, which I know that’s the part that you’re so good about, or so good at is, is taking these complex ideas and putting them into practical terms. And I think the piece that I would like for us to hold in mind, which I know you do, anyway, but is, is, you know, there are things that parents can do to help support their kids with body esteem. While also, what I’m struggling with, I suppose is, is putting the burden of responsibility and the onus on individuals when this is a systemic problem that we’re talking about. So I’m just trying to hold those two points in mind. Okay, so the first concept that I wanted to talk to you about is agency and kind of taking up space. And I think agency is a really confusing word, and I get stuck on how to describe it sometimes. So, in, from your perspective, what does this mean?
Martha Deiros Collado
I think in really simple terms, agency just means being able to make your own choices and decisions in the world, to get a sense of belonging. So to feel like I belong here. And I’ve made certain choices and decisions that make me feel like I’m valued. That’s what agency is about. It’s about knowing that you can make choices and it’s, they’re not all being made for you by somebody else, you know, somebody who has more power, who makes all the decisions, who knows best, what is good for you or right for you. That’s what agency is about.
Laura Thomas
And why is that, why is it important to hold on to that sense of agency?
Martha Deiros Collado
I mean, it’s really important for all of us, it’s really important, because otherwise, we’re basically pawns to our society. So just as you’re saying, you know, there are these powers that be, patriarchy, lots of other you know. And if we don’t have a sense of agency, then it feels like we’re just being done to, and we’re just following a script, a script that’s been written for us. So we all have different scripts written for us, depending on our context, like who we are like, again, our gender, our race, you know, our socio economic background, all those things lead us to having a script of this is who you’re meant to be in this society. And having a sense of agency is about saying, I have a voice. And I also have a choice to make decisions. That mean, I don’t have to fit into this box, this pre-prescribed box, I can be me. And again, I’m not going to tell you who you are, because everyone’s different. So some people, sometimes when I say this will say, but I fit in the box. And I might tend to say but if you’re comfortable with the box, if you’re comfortable, feel like this is me, this is me, this is who I feel I am. Go with it, like, because it’s about again, acceptance, it’s about respect. But it’s about you having a conscious, it’s a conscious thing to make choices and say, This is who I am. This is who, you know, I don’t want to be just being told that I need to fit the script. If it’s not the right mould for me, I want to be able to change and with kids. I mean, this begins with all of us from childhood. And I think for lots of people of my generation, our generation, Laura, I think,
Laura Thomas
Yeah, yes.
Martha Deiros Collado
It’s hard. Because we weren’t given a voice when we were kids. It wasn’t really such that again, the script and society about children and childhood was not that children had a voice, you know, the whole idea of children should be seen but not heard. Yeah, that still holds by the way, that’s still being held. It’s dwindling, but it’s still around. That’s how we grew up. So we have no voice like that was what society said, children don’t have a voice. You don’t make choices. You don’t make your own decisions. You just do as you’re told. And that makes you a good kid. Yeah. Right. And kind of what I’m saying a lot of the time is children do have a voice. They are born as their own individuals from day one. Like they are they have a different temperament to you. They are their own little person. They have no initially agency as tiny babies. They cannot you know, they’re, they’re not, they need you for everything. But as they grow and they develop, they begin to start being able to make choices and even tiny nonverbal babies make choices. Can you listen? Can you offer them space to say your voice it matters? Who you are matters. You don’t have to fit into the mould that I want you to fit in or society wants you to fit in? Can you let them be them? And I know that feels tricky, often for our generation because we didn’t have it. So what does that look like in practice?
Laura Thomas
Yeah, we didn’t have it modelled to us. So we don’t have that template.
Martha Deiros Collado
And often, I think it’s even as adults. I meet so many parents, me included, it’s taken me lots of work myself. It’s true. Like, it’s not something that just happens you. It’s conscious, right? It’s self awareness and real conscious effort for work. But I meet so many parents are like, I don’t know who I am. Like, how do I, so you need to figure that out a little bit like little by little like, what makes your self feel authentic? Which often begins with, when can I say no? Like, often, especially as a woman, I’m talking as myself. It’s about when can I say no? And what does the no, what are the consequences of my no. Can I tolerate them? Because there’s that as well, which is really hard. And, you know, that helps us open up space for our kids to have a voice because when we have a voice, it means that we’re more likely to say, Oh, you’re allowed one too. Because if we don’t have a voice, if we’re oppressed, so again, it’s all about systems. Like, it can be really hard to give somebody else’s voice if you feel like but I don’t have any agency, I can’t speak up for me. So you know, it’s kind of symbiotic. It has to come in both ways. So I think lots of the things, lots of my personal transformation, not just clinically, which I’ve been doing for a long time, like in therapy, but personally, has come from becoming a mother and realising this is really important to teach to my child. So I need to model it, I need to embody it myself. And that’s led me to really transform in lots of ways that I would have never expected.
Laura Thomas
Do you want to do want to talk about that a little, or is that?
Martha Deiros Collado
I mean, some things might be, I mean, we’re talking about body positivity, some things might be really simple, but there’s a huge things like, I let my grays out, like I have silvers, and I love them. And I just embrace them. And I’ve had them for since I was 26. And they are literally like at the front of my head. You know, like a big zebra stripe, that I felt shame about, because this is the important bit because for me, this isn’t true for everyone. But personally, for me, it was a sign of ageing, it was a sign of not being beautiful. I’m doing quotes my fingers, you know, within the stereotype of, you know, beauty for women. You know, it went against the grain of all those things. It’s a sign of age, I was 26. But to me, I was like, oh my god, I’m already old, you know? And there are so many narrative script stories about grey hair, in books, you know, the, all the witches. You know, it’s not attractive. It’s not meant to be like, society says this isn’t attractive, you should dye your hair you know, it’s going to age you, you know, all these scripts are these stories. Yeah, actually, I had a child and obviously locked down also happened. And I just started to embrace it. And I love it because it’s made me feel like me. Yeah, I don’t feel like it’s aged me. I actually think it’s made me more youthful. I do, I feel like I glow now like my face glows because I’ve got silvers around.
Laura Thomas
It does, I can confirm that for anyone who can’t see.
Martha Deiros Collado
For me, body positivity is about how it feels. And actually how it feels for me to have grey hair is I am more me. Yeah, this is me that dye, that’s not me. That’s just paint to put on my hair. And it didn’t feel like myself. And I you know, my daughter’s aware of it. She just sees grey as a colour. And I think that’s wonderful. Because, you know, she doesn’t see me as a witch or as a grandma or you know, any of that. She just sees me as mum. And she sees grey as it’s just another hair colour. She has no like conceived emotional layering of grey because she sees it at home.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, you’ve disrupted a narrative for her. That’s really really powerful. Because you know, she’s gonna have that idea in her head first and foremost. Oh, no, my mum has grey hair. And my mom’s amazing. Before she sees which or granny or whatever, you know, other labels and stereotypes get kind of lumped in with grey hair.
Martha Deiros Collado
Yeah. And I think you know, again, if we’re gonna get into body positivity, I know we’ve kind of gone on a sideline, we can come back. But for me, there’s something about again, we were talking about intersectionality and power, you know, when men get grey hair?
Laura Thomas
Oh, yes. Okay, no, I love where you’re going with this go on.
Martha Deiros Collado
Like it’s seen as like, sophistication. Like, you know, silver foxes, like attractive. Why is it not like that for us? Like we need to for me, we need to own it. Like, and for me, the day that my daughter gets a silver hair I don’t want her to be like, like, have the thought that I had quick dye it, get rid of it. You know, pluck it, shame on my physical, I want her to be like, Oh my god, I have a silver hair like my mummy like, this is cool. This is yeah, you know, this can be just as beautiful as brown or black or blonde. Like it’s just a colour. And again that narrative and society about what is okay for certain genders and what is not okay for others, like, for me, we do need to deconstruct that disrupt that, you know, kind of say, it’s an individual choice, but I think as individuals, we can change society’s scripts about this, the more we see, you know, people, not just men with silver hair, and it’s just accepted as being beautiful. And there are more there are more actresses now doing it. And I think it’s so great. But to me, it’s really important.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, no, I love it. And it’s kind of reminding me of this idea that Niva Piran talks about in her research. And I have a quote here, actually, one I prepared earlier that really fits, I think with what you’re saying, and she’s talking, so in the research around embodiment, it’s kind of broken down into agency around physical functionality, and literally taking up space kind of in the way that you know, I think, I think a lot about how little girl’s clothes are dresses, and you know, they’re meant to be pretty and dainty and not to get dirty. Whereas, you know, boys clothes, they have close toed shoes that are supportive and are designed for them climbing up trees and running around. So there’s, you know, baked into which even just our children’s clothing are these gendered ideas and this corseting of girls, physical corseting of girls as well as the mental corseting of girls and women. And anyway, that’s just a sidetrack, but so Niva Piran talks about functionality in the physical sense, as well as kind of agency of a voice. So they’re kind of sort of tied up in the same construct, if we want to get nerdy about it for a second. Anyway. So this quote from Niva Piran, I think kind of captures this idea that we’ve been talking about, she says that we find that acting physically in the world is most common for girls during early childhood, than in any other period, in the transition from girlhood to womanhood. So around that point of puberty is where a lot of experiences or a negative experience of disembodied or a negative experience of embodiment kinds to start to creep in. And then she says, Where by acting on one’s body gradually replaces acting in the world. And so this idea that we start doing to our body and treating our bodies as objects, rather than, then, you know, acting in the world from the subjective perspective, I think that kind of speaks to what you’re talking about here. And other kind of body modification practices that are not coming from a place of authenticity, necessarily, but are coming from a place of, I need to change my body so that it conforms to a certain aesthetic standard, or a beauty ideal, or thin, ideal. And that’s when we start to engage in, you know, compulsive exercise and disordered eating and you know, even things like dyeing our hair, because we feel like we can’t just show up as as who we are.
Martha Deiros Collado
Yeah, I agree. I mean, you’re going towards, like thinking about objectification, for me, right, like ourselves as objects to be admired or desired, or, especially for girls, but I think there is, for boys, there is a different kind of objectification happening as well. And our society like it is happening,
Laura Thomas
Do you want to unpack that a little bit? Sorry, I think you were going anyway. But what, because I think, you know, as I sort of said in, in my emails to you, I think that there is, when we’d have conversations about body positivity and bodies, everyone is just thinking about girls automatically. And boys and other genders get left out of the conversation. So let’s bring them back into the fold here.
Martha Deiros Collado
I mean, I love talking about boys. And I mean, I have a little girl and I’m a woman, but to me the things that we do to little girls, which I think I’ve been a lot more talked about, you know, like, I’m gonna go with your clothes example because I think it’s quite a nice way of like, pulling it out. Yeah, like little girls clothes versus little boys clothes. I mean, I talk about this all the time. Clothes are just clothes, you know, clothes are not gendered, society, fashion, you know, you know, systems around us have created this idea of clothes being gendered. You know, the question I always ask is, who is that for? Like, who does it serve? Because it doesn’t serve our children, really doesn’t serve our children. They don’t need that differentiation to know who they are. You know, who is that for? And things like the dresses and the flimsy shoes and the really thin leggings for the girls and then the, you know, hard wearing shoes and the sturdy trousers for the boys. Those are passive messages that are leading our children to develop a sense of who they are. And to think these are things that are possible for me, these are things that are not, but you know, it goes both ways. Yes, we are saying to little girls, you know, look dainty and sweet. You know, maybe that tree is not for climbing because oops, you’ve ripped your leggings, or it’ll hurt your feet or whatever it is. But we’re also saying to boys being pretty is not for you. You know you can’t be colourful and dainty and want to look, you know, have sparkly clothes or you know, flowers on it. That’s not who you are, you are brown and beige, and green and blue.
Laura Thomas
And you like diggers.
Martha Deiros Collado
Yes. And you like diggers and robots and whatever. And this, to me is a problem. It’s a problem both ends. It’s an absolute problem. We are putting boys in a box the same way we’re putting girls in a box. And it is not helping them develop authentically into who they are. Because if we just subscribe to those boxes, like I’ve, I’ve heard friends of mine talk about clothes like joggers for boys and say they’re too girly. I have this real sense of, and it was leopard print, and I was just like, it’s just leopard print. It can’t be girly, because it’s just a print. And yet there is still that kind of narrative of, but it’s too girly. It’s not looking boyish enough. And as soon as we do that to boys, it is really toxic. Like it’s really unhealthy. Because boys should be allowed to wear unicorns on, as a jumper. It’s just a unicorn, and guess what, kids are all about fun. So if you actually let kids choose clothes, they will always go for the sparkly fun, right? Like, you know, my daughter loves a dinosaur. You know, she loves the cars on the jumpers. So I’m like, let’s go I don’t care. She gets to choose her clothes fact, within my financial remit. So I will be like, No, not that that’s 30 pounds. But I will let her choose her clothes and her shoes. And I don’t care. It’s just clothes to me, as long as she’s warm and you know, safe in terms of her body. Yeah, I don’t care. She’s comfortable. I don’t care. But I think it’s really important to society. We think about this, like, where are we placing our little boys? Because it’s also, you know, it does generalise. I know people think it doesn’t, but it does in terms of their identity, their sense of self. So kind of what you were saying, those two things are connected, in terms of how much they can express other sides of themselves, you know, sweeter, softer, more playful sides, you know, more emotional sides more, I want a bow in my hair, you know, those sides, it is not about boys wanting to be a different gender, it is not. Similarly with girls, it is not about them wanting to be, it’s just about them wanting to be who they are.
Laura Thomas
Well, and to have a full experience as a human and not just there’s one dimensional experience, or this kind of tapered off experience, which I think you can speak to much more coherently than I can, can lead to all kinds of problems for people if we’re kind of hemmed in, and not able to fully express our emotions or identity.
Martha Deiros Collado
Yeah, because from the beginning like with little boys, not just with our clothes, obviously with lots of other things like the modelling of, you know, strong emotions, okay, but you know, softer emotions are not seen as being manly or masculine. Like that is really toxic. Because we all have the same emotions, it doesn’t matter what gender we are, emotions are all the same. Our temperament, our personality, will obviously mean that we’re a little bit different, and how we express our emotion. But that’s true for women, if you group them all together, or men if you group them all together, but in terms of emotion, we know research tells us we all feel the same. When men don’t cry it’s not because they don’t feel sad, or they don’t have, you know, deep feelings of grief or upset in their bodies. It’s because they’ve learned to block their tears. And that is massive.
Laura Thomas
It’s so fucked up when you say it like that, it’s really messed up.
Martha Deiros Collado
We’ve all got the same tear ducts.
Laura Thomas
I hadn’t planned on asking you about this, but we’re kind of here anyway so I’ll just put it to you. Because a conversation that I hear a lot is that, it’s kind of used as justification for, you know, dressing kids a certain way or letting the behave a certain way or treating them a certain way, which is this idea that there is a fundamental difference between girls and boys. And I’m not talking about purely on a biological, anatomical level, like they develop differently somehow, can you, you know, so let’s use an example that, you know, boys are more aggressive than girls, for instance.
Martha Deiros Collado
So there is no evidence, scientific evidence that this is true. There isn’t, there is not. But there is a lot of evidence about why that script that narrative exists, and why as adults, we’re more likely to see little boys as aggressive than little girls. And so much of it is about our own biases. And our biases have been developed from, you know, systems of power. And these stories in our society about what little girls are like, versus little boys, it is simply not true. Like it’s not true.
Laura Thomas
I feel like you just need to say it louder for the cheap seats at the back.
Martha Deiros Collado
Not true. Little boys are not more aggressive than little girls, but little boys are taught from a very early age that actually anger is acceptable, but things like, again, softer things like kindness and affection and crying, they’re not acceptable. And it’s not just the clothes and the toys. And it’s also their models. Children have role models in their life from the day they’re born, which are the people who love them around them, if what they see is that, you know, mummy’s cry when they like get flowers or a card, or you know, they watch a film or they hear a song, but daddy’s don’t. But every now and again, daddy’s get angry, we all get angry mummies get angry too, but mummies may have a more wider range of emotion, children absorb that information in terms of this is who I am, I am like that person because children’s see, we have to remember that children have eyes. And they are, you know, kids are so intelligent, even if we don’t think they are. And they learn very quickly, oh, I’m like you or, you know, my dad, or my mum or whoever in terms of how I look, my body, they’re aware of differences. There are differences between girls and boys, of course, there are, physiological, that doesn’t mean that they develop differently. That is just scientifically not true, that we have found zero evidence of this. And there’s so much research out there. Similarly, ideas like little boys are good at maths and girls are better at language, it’s rubbish. What we know is that little boys get given more opportunities to develop math skills, logic skills through play, which is how kids learn. So you know, building blocks, and playing with cars, and lots of things that mean that they get this visual spatial, like 3D learning through play. And girls are given things like colouring and reading, and arts and crafts. And that means that they learn language and other things that are not like, it’s all to do with how we put kids in different boxes. And it’s not to do with them developing differently. Like there is no evidence whatsoever, of course, there are individual differences. So again, you know, within this conversation, I think it’s important to say, of course, there are little boys who are aggressive, but there’s also like, have greater a tendency for aggression, I would rather say, that feels more comfortable to me, you know, they’re more likely to be physical, there’s little girls, you know, little girls who are really physical, they need to run around and climb up stuff and, and there are little boys who much prefer quiet time, you know, reading and colouring and similarly with girls, the two extremes exist in both genders. What I’m saying is, it’s not like a line that divides them,
Laura Thomas
It’s not inate, it’s learned.
Martha Deiros Collado
It’s learned. And it’s also temperament like personality, like, you know who you are, which is why I think we think about agency is about, like leaning into understanding who your child is and following their lead. Because a kid who’s really physical and active, no matter what their gender is, that’s what they need. They need more of that because that’s, that’s where their bodies going and taking them if we try and like stop them from doing that and make them sit and read and colour, whatever that’s when there’s often problems because it’s going against the grain of who they are.
Laura Thomas
Absolutely that can feel really disembodying for a child who is you know, inherently just has lots and lots of energy to burn and I think about this, I’ve been doing some training around feeding neurodivergent children, and something I’ve been thinking a lot about is in relation to like stimming and how certain forms of movement are acceptable and okay, and how we kind of privilege stillness in our society, particularly when kids start going to school and are having to sit down for long periods of time, I think about it a lot in relation to, at the table, when we, when we tell kids Oh, you have to sit down, and you have to, you know, follow these arbitrary kind of social standards around manners, and you have to sit in a particular way, and how, you know, they’re, I don’t know the numbers, but there are a large portion of kids who will need to get up from the table, will need to take a body break, will need to kind of burn off some steam because it helps them regulate themselves to be able to come back to the table, and approach a meal from a perspective, from being in a more grounded place to actually be able to eat the meal. So these are just my rambly kind of incoherent thoughts. But that’s, that’s something that I’ve been thinking a lot about is, you know, when we, when we privilege and prioritise stillness for kids, how that can be so disembodying
Martha Deiros Collado
I mean, to me, this is really important. And eating, you know, for me is one of those places where it is about bodily autonomy, and it is like, just feeding just, you know, eating itself. But even what you’ve just said, to me is really important, you know, little kids, and I’m gonna say, up to the age of eight, but it doesn’t mean that eight is a cut off, but around the age of eight, they’re not supposed to sit still and focus for longer than about 15 to 20 minutes, like their bodies, their brain, and their body is just not made to do that. And they’re not mini adults. I mean, I feel like this needs to be said really loudly, but kids are not mini adults, they’re kids, and they’re not fully formed, like our children are not fully formed, they’re born and they keep forming, develop, that’s what development is about. Their brain isn’t fully formed, even at eight, their brain is not fully formed. So this idea of them
Laura Thomas
It’s not like until in your 20s, right, that your prefrontal cortex is fully formed.
Martha Deiros Collado
Around 25. But again, it’s a range, right? It’s not like at 25 and you’re like, there we go.
Laura Thomas
I’m done cooking.
Martha Deiros Collado
Yeah, and the good thing, I mean, to me, this is hopeful, because I think for some people, it’s frightening. But it’s hopeful, because we change and we evolve throughout the course of our life. And that’s, that’s an amazing thing that we have as humans that our body keeps growing, changing, developing, and particularly our brain, like there’s times of growth in our brain, which happened in childhood. And then there’s times of culling in our brain. So teenage years, there’s parts of our brain that shut down. If they’re not used, you know, the, if you don’t use it, you lose it, is real for our brain. Absolutely. And that carries on, so around the age of 25, and onwards, bits of our brain that we don’t use, we just start to lose them, which is why having an active brain and an active body is so important that as we get older, it’s because of that it’s because it keeps us fully healthy. So this is true. This is real, we know it. But in terms of our kids, like we can’t expect them, like we need to allow our children to listen to their bodies, within safety boundaries. So I feel that’s important. But when it comes to mealtime, there are ways like to allow your child to be free with their bodies, like you’re saying, sometimes they need the space to regulate and come back and keep eating. And the societal rules that actually based by adults, for adults, they’re not based for kids, like, you know, you don’t expect a baby to not cry.
Laura Thomas
Well, some people do but that’s another conversation, Martha, let’s maybe not go there.
Martha Deiros Collado
Yeah different conversation. But to be expecting a little one to just sit at the table for like an hour, an hour and a half. Like I’ve sat at tables with my friends for like three hours. Like you can’t expect a kid to do that. Like it’s just not motivating for them. They’ve got tiny stomachs, you know, again, their bodies, tiny little tummies. And once they’re fully satiated enough, they’re done. But sometimes they go off and play and they go, Oh, I still have a bit of space, and I could eat a bit more. So you need to allow that, you know, flexibility is so important.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I just did a whole episode about kind of holding flexible boundaries for kids around food and eating because I think like, if a boundary is too hard when it comes to food it’s just going to break and that’s not going to that’s not helpful for anyone. So we need that flexibility. And I’ll link back to the episode I did with Kristen Scher where we unpack division of responsibility and feeding a little bit more and we talk about a lot more of the nuance. So I’ll link to that in the show notes for anyone who wants to focus a bit more on feeding. But something that you touched on there and I’d like to in maybe our last few minutes unpack a little bit more is this idea of autonomy? And well, yeah, body autonomy in particular. Can we, can you maybe touch on why that’s important, and again, how we can, in practical ways support body autonomy for kids?
Martha Deiros Collado
So for me, body autonomy is about kind of body sovereignty, like knowing that what gets done to your body is your choice. So inevitably, to me this links into consent. And I think one of the things that with little ones, it’s important to think about is, as a parent, as an adult, you have a lot of power and responsibility over looking over your little one’s body. And there are care tasks that you have to do, like, watch them, change their nappy, give them medication,
Laura Thomas
Teeth brushing, that’s a whole thing,
Martha Deiros Collado
Yeah. But you know, some of those things will bring discomfort to your child, you know, changing a nappy like, it’s cold, and they’re vulnerable in that moment, brushing their teeth is a sensory thing that lots of kids really take a long time to get used to, and turn into a habit. It’s not an automatic like, it’s not pleasurable, basically, same with washing, washing their hair, washing their bodies. And as a parent, you have to do those tasks. But body autonomy in those even in those moments, it’s not really, it’s not consent in those moments, it’s not about permission to, but it’s an acknowledgement of, I’m doing this to your body, and I know you don’t like it, but I have to do it to keep you safe. And when we acknowledge your child’s body, including when they’re tiny babies, you know, saying I need to wipe your bum, you know, I need to take the poo off your bum, we need to clean your vulva or your penis, you know, we need to make it all nice and clean. We are teaching our kids about their bodies, we are teaching our kids hygiene. You know, we’re teaching them like one day, this is something you’re going to do. And the more we do that, I mean, it seems so simple, but a lot of nappy changes get done completely silent. And it’s such an opportunity to begin, I know we talked about, yes, I do say talk to your little ones from the start, this is so important. When they transition into using a toilet, which are going to do at some point, all children do, no matter how old they are. It’s not an age thing. But when they transition, they’re going to do it so much more smoothly if they understand their body, if they know Oh, poo comes out, you know, wee comes out. I know this because I’ve my nappies get changed and there’s words happening that make me understand my body and my bodily functions. And that leads them to want to be autonomous with them. Does that make sense?
Laura Thomas
Yeah, absolutely. I’m thinking, there’s so many, like little tangents and rabbit holes that we could down, I’m trying to stay focused. But I mean, yeah, I think what you’re saying is that, you know, how disorienting would it be to one be just one day just be sat on a potty and be told, okay, produce something, if you didn’t even have any awareness that your body produced those things in the first place, or it didn’t really have a, you know, not that maybe toddlers are going to have a complete understanding of what’s going on. But they will have because as you’ve said, they’re much more clued in and then we like to make out as adults, so they’re going to have some awareness of what’s going on. One thing that I was thinking about just around bodily autonomy and kind of consent or assent, depending on you know, how you want to kind of frame it is. So as a lot of toddlers, my kid has a very snotty nose a lot of the time, and it is so mind blowing to me, the number of people who will just grab a tissue and go up and start wiping his face. And I, and he will, you can see him reeling away, you can see him moving back. And I have to say to people, look, please don’t do that. First of all, please don’t just shove a tissue in my kid’s face. But if you’d like to blow his nose, if you let him know, he will actually lean in towards the tissue. Imagine that, he knows what’s happening because we’ve been able to role model or not role model, we’ve had those conversations with him. He knows what to expect, because I’ve said to him, you know so many times, I’m going to blow your nose now and, you know, hold the tissue up so that he can lean in, rather than just blindside him with a tissue. It’s just, it’s such a small thing, but you can see how if we’re doing that with every single caregiving task, yes, I mean, see the things you know, like being picked up or being held or you know, these things kind of add up and add up and add up to the point that kids can get the sense that my body doesn’t belong to me because people are just doing to me rather than with me. And that like just that slight shift to, it links back to what you were saying before, is that these are okay, their brains aren’t fully developed, but they are fully full humans, right? They’re not just adults in training, they are full humans, and we need to teach them with or treat them with that respect.
Martha Deiros Collado
Absolutely.
Laura Thomas
You know, how would you feel if an adult came up and started wiping your nose without saying anything, like it’s not cool, it’s not okay.
Martha Deiros Collado
I mean, to me, this is so key, I love that example of the tissue. You know, I actually now suggest to my daughter, she might need to blow her nose, she’s only three, and she will take a tissue, she can blow her nose completely, and I trust that she’s going to do it, you know, I, it’s about trust, like trust that your, your child wants to look after themselves, they do, they just need you to guide them, because they don’t know what they need to do to keep themselves healthy. But if you teach them and do it, like you said, like, collaboratively, you’re not doing to them you’re doing with them, they learn it, and they want to do it. And that is about agency that is also about not objectifying your child. It’s also about you know, giving them that sense of my body is mine, like, there are things I need to do. But I get a choice in how it gets done. As your child gets older, like things like this, like so many little simple things, like even just allowing your child to join you in washing their hair, or, you know, you put the soap on or drying their body, combing their, little things like this idea that little ones can’t do it, because they’re not going to do it right. You’re there to supervise and protect and guide. They, that’s how they learn. Kids learn through repetition, and practice. And when you talk to them while you do care tasks, and then they begin to collaborate and join in, eventually, they can just do them. And you know, they’re doing them safely because they’ve learnt them with you rather than now you’re old enough to wash yourself in the shower, how do I do this. Like, you know, and you’re no longer a passive kind of actor in your body, your body is actively a part of you. And for me, consent is always about pleasurable activity, not care. Right? It’s about pleasure to the body. And I think that’s, for me, that’s the differentiation as a parent, there are things you have to do to your child that may be uncomfortable, but it keeps them safe. And then there’s things that bring pleasure to their body. And they’re not about safety. And your child should always have a right of yes or no, because consent isn’t just about the No, it’s about a real deep yes, I really want to do this. If your child doesn’t really want to do something, you have to take that as a no.
Laura Thomas
Sorry, I was just gonna say, Could we maybe use an example, I think one that jumps to mind, and you might have others that you prefer. But I was thinking about tickling as an example. Could we maybe, I just want to make sure that we can kind of put it into concrete terms for people as to what we’re talking about. So yeah, could we, do you mind just exploring that with the example of tickling?
Martha Deiros Collado
Yeah, so tickling, I mean, it’s beautiful example. Because tickling, for me is something that adults see as fun. But it is sensorily, really a massive overload to the body, and it can be really distressing. So tickling, there’s lots of giggling and laughing because that’s what tickling does to our bodies, right? It makes us laugh, it’s a sensory stimulation that that’s the response. But laughter isn’t always enjoyment. And that’s really tricky. I know. But it’s, it’s, it’s like an impulsive response from our body. It is not necessarily I’m really enjoying this. And I think that can make it really tricky for adults to understand that children are not enjoying something, they’re tickling because they, they’re laughing through tickling, because they can’t help themselves. But that doesn’t mean they’re enjoying it. So for me, tickling is one of those where it’s a great one to kind of ask for permission, you know, can I tickle you? Is this okay? Is this not okay? We also think, you know, and just, I mean, for me, tickling is a bit of a no, so I don’t like tickling kids at all. I don’t think it’s a helpful thing to do. But I think with consent, it is about kind of allowing, if it happens through playfulness to kind of stop and say was that okay? You want more of that? Literally stop yourself and ask Is that okay? And sometimes kids even though they’re laughing, they’ll say no, no, no, no, no. And you need to listen to that no. You need to stop, not go but they’re laughing they’re enjoying it. They might not be. It’s a really hard one with tickles because we can’t help ourselves.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, tickling is such a, an interesting one for me, because Avery sometimes likes being tickled, and he will ask for it and be like more. And other times he he’ll push, push hands away, he will say no, and if it’s another adult doing it, and I’ve noticed that he said that I have to very much step in and kind of help, you know, support that boundary that he’s put in place, because I’ve noticed that a lot of adults don’t respect children’s boundaries, just across the board. And so and that’s a really, really important piece of this for me as well, whether we’re talking about agency and consent and autonomy is noticing boundaries and respecting and honouring them, even if they are quite subtle, or you know, not
Martha Deiros Collado
Sometimes nonverbal, right?
Laura Thomas
Exactly, yeah.
Martha Deiros Collado
So you need to really focus on your child, notice, you know, they push, and you could even like, stop and say, You just pushed me with your legs, did you want me to stop? You know, because for me, it’s about them being able to really verbalise that no. And you noticing it is like step one, just notice. Yeah, it’s that permission to do things with your child’s body. And them being able to say no, that is key to consent, because kids learn really quickly, whether their no is respected and matters, or whether their no is just gonna get overridden. So what’s the point in saying no, and this is something we’re teaching our kids about their bodies, and I know people sometimes think, but I’m a safe adult, like, I’m safe so that’s okay. The problem is children don’t differentiate between my mum, my dad, my grandparents, who may or may not be safe, they don’t differentiate between that and an older kid, or another adult who may not be safe, because they might be really lovely. And what we need to think about, because this is protecting our kids from abuse 100%. So lots of the things we’ve talked about today protects our kids from abuse in so many different areas, but one of them is physical and sexual abuse. 100%. Because when we’re able to say to our child, you can say no to an adult, you can say no to me, your parent, and I will listen, they learn that they’re allowed to say no to somebody else, and they need to listen. If they don’t they know that’s not quite right. Because they feel it. Right? Because they, we’ve taught them when you say no, I listen, that is what’s supposed to happen. If you say no and somebody does something, then they’ll say, ah, something’s not right here. This isn’t what usually happens in my interaction with my parent or my safe adult. And this is really, really key for our kids, if we want to protect them. And abuse most of the time does not happen with strangers. It does not happen with strangers. It happens with people that we know, that we love that we feel safe with. It’s mostly within families, and or safe, I’m going to put that in quotation marks, adults or people, friends, teachers, like I’m not saying everybody’s an abuser, absolutely not. We need to think about abuse being a very small part. But it’s true that when kids are at risk of abuse, it is usually somebody we know. It is not some stranger on the street. It is not like stranger danger is the thing we need to talk about. It’s not. This is what we need to talk about. We need to talk about, you know, body autonomy, we need to talk about consent, we need to help our children know that their body’s theirs, and even when we do a care task, you know, like the snotty nose, that there is a joiningin in, like you know, okay, I need to clean your nose. I know you don’t want me to, but it’s gonna it’s gonna get irritated and it’s gonna get stingy if I don’t clean it. Okay, so I’m just gonna wipe it really gently come here, really, I know you didn’t like that. That’s what it sounds like, you can still do it. And acknowledge you didn’t want me to do this. Because that’s the bit that makes children go. Okay, you’re keeping me safe, rather than you’re abusing me. Does that make sense?
Laura Thomas
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s just, I think for a lot of parents, the prospect of abuse is just so terrifying, because it is, it’s terrifying. That that, I think, sort of puts it into focus as to why these conversations are so important, that these are not just you know, like, you know, nice added extras to have as parents, that these are essential tools that we need to think of in our parenting toolkit.
Martha Deiros Collado
These are safeguarding tools. That’s how you need to think about them. Your child understanding their body, their full body, not just their, you know, heads, shoulders, knees and toes. Their full body, understanding their body parts is a safe guarding tool This is a fact. A scientific fact. Body autonomy, listening to your child, you know, I’ve eaten enough, right? No, you haven’t come on eat a bit more. Actually going is that what your tummy says, you’re tummy’s full? Okay, I trust you. Getting your child to learn, I can trust my body signals and other people will listen to me. That is a safeguarding tool, you know, not objectifying your kid, actually valuing them for who they are, giving them a sense of autonomy about their likes and dislikes outside of prescriptive gender roles or anything like that. That is a safeguarding tool because they know this is who I am, right? They can feel empowered to put that out there in the world. And know, there is no shame, they will be accepted. These are all safeguarding tools that we give our kids and this is what protects them 100% way more than any other kind of societal things. This is what protects our kids, them knowing who they are, and knowing that they have a voice in the world.
Laura Thomas
I think that’s such a powerful note to kind of wrap up the conversation. Yeah, no, I think just co-signing everything that you said, that keeping our kids safe is, and teaching them these really valuable life skills is, you know, it’s only going to lead to really, you know, not lead to really good things, but it’s gonna prevent bad things from happening, hopefully. But also, yeah, just give them a real sense of security and safety in their bodies. And I think that’s what we would hope for all of our kids. Okay, so at the end of every episode, we do that’s my jam, which is just sharing something that we’ve been really interested in or excited about lately. It can be a snack, it could be a book, it can be a podcast, anything. So was just wondering, Martha, what your jam is that at the moment. Did I not tell you about this?
Martha Deiros Collado
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you did, you did, you did. I had to think about this. And I have a few jams at the moment. But I think the one I will share is I’m a bit, what’s the word? I’m a bit late to it, I think. But I’m really into the series called This Way Up.
Laura Thomas
Oh, I haven’t heard about this one.
Martha Deiros Collado
It came out in 2019. I hope I’ve called it the right thing. I was just about to double check that that’s what it’s called. I think it is called This Way Up. And it’s got Sharon Horgan and Aisling Bea as sisters in the show. And it is, like really short. It’s like 25 minutes an episode, which I love. So I’m really into my series, but they have to be, I’m really into series that are meaningful. So I’m not one of those people who’s very good at just watching like, just anything on TV. And this is a series that I find incredibly uplifting, like it makes me proper belly laugh. And I like that. It’s you know, written by Aisling Bea. It talks about mental health straight up. like it is about mental health. It is about like gender, the gender pay gap. It’s about relationships, like sister relationships, like women with women, which is great, but also relationships, like in terms of sexuality, and in terms of like age, and what it is her age as a man versus age as a woman. And there’s the race in there, and like a lot, a lot of representation in the programme, which I totally like, go for. Like I love that. It’s great to see a programme with so much diversity in it. It’s also got things like Brexit in it. It’s great. It’s so many good themes that I could talk about for hours, on each of them. But it’s really uplifting and talks about some really hard things like suicide and yet is very uplifting, very compassionate to difficult themes like homelessness and other things, really good.
Laura Thomas
Wow, I’m like, I have no idea what this show is actually about because it’s like about all of the things I’m like,
Martha Deiros Collado
All these things.
Laura Thomas
That sounds that sounds so cool. And I’m definitely gonna check it out. I’m looking for things that I can watch because something I struggle with when I’m watching TV programmes is that if, at the moment especially because the world just feels so difficult to be in. That if, if something isn’t just like, really, saccharin, I can’t really watch it right now. So like if anything kind of like, like I’ve wanted to watch Euphoria, but I’ve heard that it’s really like hard going, especially if you’re watching it kind of like late into the night and when your toddler doesn’t go to bed until after 9. That’s, that’s your time for watching TV. Anyway, my thing is also a TV show, but it’s like the polar opposite probably of what you were talking about. And I’m really late to the game on this. I know but I have been enjoying Your Home Made Perfect, and Your Garden Made Perfect. Have you come across this show?
Martha Deiros Collado
No, but it sounds like things that I would definitely watch.
Laura Thomas
It’s like, I don’t normally go for like home improvement shows and garden improvement shows because they usually make me feel bad about my shoe box flat that I live in. But this, this show is just really, it’s really cool because they basically they get like a family or a couple or you know, whoever it is, who have a budget, and then they get two architects to like compete for the design, and then they show it all in virtual reality. So you can actually like kind of step into the design. And then at the end of the show, you get to see the finished product. And it’s kind of fun, because you’re like, Okay, which one are they going to go for? And like, yeah, so I really like it because there is nothing, nothing bad happens in it ever. Like there’s maybe like a tiny little bit of drama where they’re like, ooh, this like brick went in the wrong place and we’re gonna have to move this brick over here, you know, whatever. But by and large, it’s like just a nice show. And I need nice shows in my life. So that’s my, that’s my thing at the moment. And then the garden one is just fun because it’s plants and flowers.
Martha Deiros Collado
I love a garden show, Gardener’s World is my favourite.
Laura Thomas
It is great. So yeah, those are my recommendations. Martha, can you tell everyone before we go where they can find you and find out more about your work?
Martha Deiros Collado
Sure. I am on Instagram, as @dr.martha.psychologist. So you can find out more there. I do have a website, which is drmdc.co.uk. But that is going to change. I don’t know when but I’m like transitioning it a little bit. Making it a bit more user friendly, I think. And yeah, putting more resources and things on it to make things more useful for people. But it’s still there. And there’s lots on there. So there’s like a reading list. And I often put up things like for free, you know, like journals or articles or whatever. And I’ll stick them on my website so people can read if they’re more interested or interested in reading things in more depth. Yeah.
Laura Thomas
Amazing. Well, I’ll link to everywhere that people can find you in the show notes. But I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and for talking and talking about these really important ideas. And for kind of helping us put them in really practical, you know, tangible forms that that people can apply in their day to day, so thank you.
All right, team. That’s this week’s show. If you’d like to learn more about today’s guest, then check out the show notes in your podcast player, or head to laurathomasphd.co.uk for more details or the full transcript from today’s episode. Big thanks to Joeli Kelly for editorial and transcription support. And if you need to get in touch with me then you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk or find me on Instagram @bub.appetit. And if you enjoyed today’s episode, then you can help the show reach more people by subscribing on your podcast player and sharing it with a friend. Alright team. I will catch you next Friday with a brand new episode. See you there.
Show Notes:
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Check out Episode 134 with Kristen Scher
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Edited by Joeli Kelly
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