You’re gonna love this one team! This week’s episode is hear and this time, I’m joined by Jeanette Thompson-Wessen, AKA @themindsetnutritionist. Jeanette is an anti-diet, Intuitive Eating, fat positive nutritionist and all-round bad-ass in this field. In this conversation, we cover things like;
- Jeanette’s experience of bumping up against anti-fat maternity policies
- How leaning into social justice helped her make peace with her body
- Snapback culture and our experiences of breastfeeding
- Modelling healthy body esteem to our kids
- How diet culture shows up in our parenting
- How raising anti-diet kids is a form of resistance and rebellion
This is such a great conversation ya’ll, so don’t forget to subscribe and give it a share if you enjoyed it!
Show Notes:
- Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter
- Follow Jeanette on Instagram
- Follow Don’t Salt My Game on Instagram
- Laura’s Website
- Jeanette’s Website
- Check out Jeanette’s crowdfunding campaign here
- Check out my IG post on where diet culture shows up in your parenting
- Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It
- Check out Body Happy Org
- Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course
- Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns
- Edited by Joeli Kelly
Transcript:
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
There has been that shift in myself, my body, as well as literally a shift in my energy. Like I don’t want to waste my time and energy thinking about my body right now. Like my body is just doing what it’s going to do. It has an ebb and flow. Our bodies are supposed to change. My body isn’t supposed to look like what it looked like when it was 18 years old. It’s not supposed to look like what it looked like before I had my first baby. I’m three babies down the line. Like there’s a lot of changes that’s gone on. And we’re going to be kind to ourselves about that.
Laura Thomas
Hey team. Welcome back to Don’t Salt My Game where we are having conversations with game changers who are flipping diet culture on its head. I’m Laura Thomas. I’m a registered nutritionist who specialises in intuitive eating and anti diet nutrition. And I’m also the author of Just Eat It and How to Just Eat It. Today I am talking to the lovely Jeanette Thompson-Wessen aka The Mindset Nutritionist. I really can’t wait for you to hear this episode. But first, a quick ad break.
I just wanted to give a quick plug for my OG CPD course applying intuitive eating and non diet approaches in practice. It’s a great foundational course if you are a nutritionist or dietitian or other health care professional, new to intuitive eating and non diet work. Or if you are a seasoned professional want to update and refresh your skills. The course is super practical with lots of resources and worksheets that you can use in your practice. We cover an introduction to intuitive eating and the non diet approach and weight science. We then go on to explore reliance on hunger and satiety cues, unconditional permission to eat, understanding emotional eating, body food choice congruence, as well as intuitive movement. So covering all of the fundamental principles of intuitive eating. Plus, you can join our monthly live q&a to ask questions about specific case or questions that you have about the content from the course. So the course is approved for six CPD units by the Association for Nutrition. So if that sounds good to you, then head to Learn with LCIE teachable page, which is linked in the show notes to get all the information and to sign up. You get lifetime access to the course and the materials and there are payment plan options available if you need them. Or if you need student or equity pricing that just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk and we’ll hook you up.
All right, let’s get back to today’s episode. Today I’m speaking with Jeanette Thompson-Wessen. Jeanette is a nutritionist who works with intuitive eating and fat liberation. She’s a mom of three and also a food teacher. She works alongside Body Happy Org with Molly Forbes, and runs the All Bodies Recovery campaign formerly Beat Weight Stigma with Emma Green PhD. I really wanted to talk to Jeanette to hear more about how she came to anti diet work and how she is navigating diet culture as a mum of three who has recently given birth, and how she’s thinking about that really vulnerable postpartum period in terms of body image. We also talked about how feeding her kids has changed over the years. And what teaching them healthy body esteem looks like. There was so much that I could hope to talk to Jeanette about and I had to kind of rein myself in a bit but I think we might have to do a round two at some point. I’ve only recently got to know Jeanette a little bit more and but I already feel like I’ve known her for years. So she’s incredibly warm. And everyone I talked to says “oh Jeanette’s lovely” and she really is so I can’t wait for you to hear this conversation. As always, I’d love to know your thoughts. So head over to Instagram and follow me @bub.appetit and @dontsaltmaygame to keep the conversation going. Alright team, here’s Jeanette.
We’re gonna start out with a quick fire round. So I’m going to ask you a question and I just want to know the first thing that comes to mind. Are you ready?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Okay, I’m ready.
Laura Thomas
All right. What subject did you like best at school?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I was a science nerd.
Laura Thomas
I mean, I got that yeah, I get that. You know it takes one to know one but. Most refreshing beverage?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Oh god, I really like a Fanta, like a proper Fanta Orange though. Did you see that the lemon ones been got rid of in Europe.
Laura Thomas
No.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
They’re discontinuing it.
Laura Thomas
Oh
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
That’s really disappointing.
Laura Thomas
I’ve never really like a Fanta Fanta person but I do like lemon drinks. So I feel sad from that perspective.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
For me it’s like a holiday thing. Like you go on holiday somewhere and you can have like a Fanta lemon and I’m like, where is that going to go? But yeah, I like a Fanta, if I’m gonna go somewhere, a Fanta.
Laura Thomas
At this point in time, I have absolutely no recollection of what holidays abroad are like. So I don’t think I’mg going on one for a while.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I mean, I went to Butlins and that’s very much not the same experience.
Laura Thomas
It’s not. Okay. I mean, I think it’s an adventure if I leave Hackney. So, tacos or pizza.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Tacos.
Laura Thomas
That was a very definitive tacos.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah, definitely.
Laura Thomas
If you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be? Somewhere where they have fanta lemon?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Somewhere they have that. There has to be around the world somewhere. I don’t know. I think, I don’t know somewhere by the coast would be really nice. You know, you have like this life plan in your mind. Like when I retire somewhere it’s going to be by the coast. I can go for really nice walk down by the beach. But I hate swimming in the sea, so.
Laura Thomas
Oh, tell me about that.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I don’t like not knowing what’s underneath the surface of the sea.
Laura Thomas
It is not just you and I see all these people who are like, Oh, I love wild swimming. Wild swimming is so cool. And I’m like, Yes. In theory. In reality, do you know what is touching your feet?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Exactly. Kind of grosses me out slightly.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I need crystal clear blue water.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah, and you’re not gonna find that here.
Laura Thomas
Preferably chlorinated.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I love the idea of wild swimming. And I’d love to be one of those people who’s just like, Look, I’ve just been for a wild swim. But yeah, that’s never gonna happen. I remember as a child, I went swimming, in I think it was Ireland. And the sea looked actually okay, but I remember putting my foot down. And this massive crab wrapped hold of my toe and I ran out with this crab still attached to me. And I think that’s probably haunted me since, and I’ve been very much if I can quickly get into a deep bit in the sea, I’m okay. But if I have to stroll everything, so like I can’t see it, oh my god.
Laura Thomas
Oh my god. I think I just got contact trauma from your story. That is like my worst nightmare. Oh, my God, it reminds me of so Dave once made me go snorkelling, he was like, it’ll be great. And this was like, against my better judgement. And we were literally just like, wearing snorkels and putting our face under the like, top, you know, the surface of the water. So we weren’t, you know, it wasn’t like heavy duty. And this like school of fish swam at me and I just bolted out of the water. I was like, never ever ever again. Not happy. Can’t do it. Okay, anyways, let’s think of something bit nicer to think about.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah.
Laura Thomas
Simon, Duke of Hastings or Anthony Bridgerton?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Simon. All the way.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I’m in agreement.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I miss him.
Laura Thomas
Why is he not in this season? It just,
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
it doesn’t make any sense. It’s rude. I can’t wait for him to come back eventually. I’m hoping he will do.
Laura Thomas
I’m hoping he’ll make a reappearance for season three,
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Wouldn’t that’d be nice.
Laura Thomas
Something to look forward to.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah.
Laura Thomas
You can tell we’re both parents, right? No holidays and Yeah, waiting for the new season of bridgerton. Even though I haven’t even finished the second one. It’s a whole thing. Okay, favourite flavour of cake.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Love a proper chocolate cake, but like a homemade one. I’m one of these people that I’ll buy like a cake from like a supermarket and stuff. And I’d be like, this is nice. But wish I just had the time actually make it because I’d enjoy it more if I made it myself. But I never have the time to do that kind of thing now.
Laura Thomas
I mean, you’re a busy person. So we’ll talk about that. I mean, there’s a reason why you can’t always make a cake. I mean, who has the time for that? Do you have a hidden talent?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I can roll my tongue.
Laura Thomas
Oh, can you show me? Oh yeah,
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
okay, yeah
Laura Thomas
Yeah, you can, confirmed.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I like that there’s gonna be the sound effects for people doing that. Yeah.
Laura Thomas
That’s probably grossed so many people out, sorry about that, guys.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah, sorry, everyone.
Laura Thomas
Favourite kitchen utensil?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Oh my god. I just bought and this, I think this is a sad sign that I’m definitely in my 30s. I just bought the best like spoon ever.
Laura Thomas
Okay, tell me more.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
It’s got a wooden handle and it’s got rather than like a wooden spoon, the whole thing being wood, it’s silicone at the bottom. But it’s almost like a ladle.
Laura Thomas
Oohh.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Because it’s so big. So I have been really enjoying cooking with that because I can properly scoop out stuff to serve it all. So I used it to cook. I’m like this is multi use. I love it.
Laura Thomas
Okay, well this would not be the first time that a satisfying spoon-like utensil has come up on this particular segment. So you are not alone in that, you’re not alone. Okay, now that we’ve done that very fast rapid fire section I want to, I want to ask you about you and you’re I was gonna say journey but I really despise that word, your career trajectory, shall we say?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah
Laura Thomas
You’re an anti diet, intuitive eating, fat positive. Any other label you want to add? Nutritionist.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah.
Laura Thomas
But I know that that wasn’t always the perspective that you were practising from. But I would really love to hear more about that evolution and what, you know what got you to this point that you’re at now.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I’d always wanted to do something with like food like from being a child or wanting to do, I actually want to be a chef. And I remember doing work experiences as a child when I started in year 10. And like Chef work and stuff, and I hated it, I absolutely hated it. Because I’m very much a people person and learned very quickly that being a chef you have to kind of be shut away in the back. Didn’t enjoy that. And I love science, already said about that. So kind of married the two together and ended up being like, I want to become a dietitian. Unfortunately, I did not do well with my A levels, I did not work hard enough, just having fun with friends rather than actually working hard. And so I actually didn’t get the A levels I wanted to do to become a dietitian, and also leading up to that I had quite a lot of disordered eating myself. I think that was a part of me, not doing well enough in my A levels, because I had a big focus on food. I very much had this view of if I’m becoming a dietician, I must be of a certain body shape and body size. And I had never ever, ever fitted into that I had. I’ve always been, actually when I was younger as a small fat person. And I always thought to myself, Okay, I need to lose weight, I need to lose weight. Before I actually endeavour on becoming a dietitian. Who would listen to someone who as a dietitian who looks like me, basically, is the thinking. So I restricted my intake of food, I wouldn’t eat breakfast, I’d throw away my kind of lunch, I’d eat some food at dinner. And it was not good for me whatsoever. And I think that’s where my disordered eating kind of started. And I didn’t get into dietetics. But I went and said, Okay, I’m gonna go and do a nutrition degree. So I started my nutrition degree. And I found that in the size of I am, in a cohort of like, people who want to be nutritionists was very kind of interesting. It was always, when you are, when you’re ready, like when you’re ready, you’ll want to lose the weight. You have to be in there like mentally do that. And it’s all you know, it came up like, people would talk about fatness around me, obviously a lot. It was a weight-centric like course, like the whole thing was, okay, we’ve got to have, you know, good nutrition, and then about the science of that, but learning a lot about the science behind weight, and what we should be doing from a public health point of view and all these other points of view. And it’s, it was very difficult to be the person sat there being like hi yeah, yeah I need to do this, I know, this messaging is kind of also aiming this slightly at me. And there’s always that pressure, always that pressure of doing that. So I always thought in my head, I’m gonna go from my nutrition degree, and then applied to do my master’s in dietetics. I got to the end of my degree, I had two application forms filled out. I had my master’s in dietetics filled out. And I also had a PGCE in food teaching.
Laura Thomas
Can you say what that is? Because we probably have a lot of people who don’t live in the UK who are gonna have no idea what that is.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
So PGCE is my postgraduate certificate in education. So that’s what what we do in the UK,
Laura Thomas
It’s a teacher qualification.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah, it’s a teacher qualification and specialising in like food education and going that way. So I had them both filled out. And one of the biggest major plays into this, once again, came back to my body. I’d put on weight throughout my degree, I was still a small fat, but I’d still put on weight during my degree. And that had played on my mind because obviously I had that constant pressure and messaging from being a nutritionist, and myself, and from the people around me as well. And I once again, I thought to myself, I can’t, I can’t do this. If I look like that. I’ll come back to this. As soon as I have found the right way for me to keep the weight the right way. I’m doing like quotes here, the right way to sustain my weight loss, something that works for me once again in quotes. I thought I’ll come back, I’ll circle back around to doing my dietetics. So I went for my teaching qualification instead. Which was, it’s been really good and it shaped pretty much what I do. You know, in general, I’ve done I’ve had lots of learning and it definitely has shaped me as a person. And I love teaching kids how to cook and about nutrition. And it wasn’t until I think it was the year before, must have been the year before that I fell pregnant with my first like my eldest, my daughter that I actually accidentally fell into having a look at Health at Every Size and you know there’s been a controversial kind of element at the moment. But I fell into that. And I was like this makes a lot of sense to me. Because throughout the whole of that time, then I tried Slimming World a couple of times, I’d tried calorie counting. I’d done SlimFast. You know, all of these things. Never
Laura Thomas
Those are not endorsements, by the way.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
They’re not. No, no, no, no, no, no, I’d always put the weight on. And I’d always gained extra on top of that. So when I started looking into like, anti diet, nutrition, and, you know, health, every size, there’s something clicked, I was just like, I’ve, I’ve always explained to people that no matter what, you know, the size that I’ve been in, I’ve always been, I’ve always felt, you know, I can move, I’ve obviously had that body privilege being a small fat, I can move, I still felt as if I felt okay in my body, other than how I felt about my body and the way that it looked. And I’d always felt healthy, not that healthy is that makes you any more valuable or less valuable, etc. And it kind of just went, Oh, my goodness, this makes so much sense. Like, I can have healthy behaviours, and be the size that I am right now. Why have I been focusing on weight loss, it’s been this whole time when it has not worked for me. So then that’s when I started doing loads of CPD, like loads of training and development. And I, you know, when just something just clicks, and that was my moment where it just went, this, this is it. This is what I’ve almost been waiting for. And I know it sounds like a proper cliche and being like, my teaching has brought me this far. And it was definitely a pivotal moment of me being like, this is what I need to be doing now. This is what I’m supposed to be doing. I found, you know, where I should be going with what I want to do and how I want to help people. And yeah, so I ended up doing actually your course, for intuitive eating and doing other courses as well and expanding so yeah, I kind of came on to and it was a really happy accident that it happened. And I feel really thankful and it kind of came. I mean, the journey to be where I am right now hasn’t been and I think it’s really important to say it hasn’t been like
Laura Thomas
It’s not been a linear process right?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
That’s the word I was looking for. Yeah. Hasn’t been linear. Because I, you know, I found Health at Every Size I found anti diet nutrition, I started to do these trainings and stuff. And I fell pregnant with my daughter. And I actually that was was my last ditch kind of effort at dieting, which was actually when I was in my second trimester with my daughter.
Laura Thomas
Oh really?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah.
Laura Thomas
Okay, we are going to have to talk about this if that’s okay.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah, of course it is.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, go on, then tell tell me more.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I really wanted to go to the birth centre to give birth to my, to my baby. So desperate, but I had been told there was a BMI limit. And we know how we hate BMI limits, we know that actually, there’s no reason to have a BMI limit. It’s all gatekeeping you know, as you know, it should be a given that anyone should have any choice that they want to have and have autonomy over their body, ultimately, but at that time, I hadn’t gone far enough down into my journey to know that and to realise that, so I was like, okay, all I need to do is make sure that I lose weight and lose enough weight to be able to be just under the BMI limit, just under or just on it so I can get the rubber stamp to go to the birth centre. So I did Slimming World and I put myself on and if anyone has done Slimming World before or if you’re not in the UK, it’s very similar to like, Weight Watchers.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, it’s a point based system
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
And I was going okay, I’m gonna go zero points. I’m going to just live off salads, as little things as possible. And my nutritionist brain was very much like this is not a good idea.
Laura Thomas
Red flag red flag red flag.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah, so logically, I knew that I needed at that, specially at that moment of time, like I had my baby needed nutrition, that my baby needed nutrition to grow, my body needed that nutrition to help me be as healthy as I can be personally for my own pregnancy and for my baby. Whereas I, I was so worried and so locked onto the fact that I would be not allowed to do that because of my fatness basically. So I remember doing that. And I remember going to the birth centre and being weighed and the midwife weighed me and she congratulated me she said, You are exactly the same weight as you were when you walked in. So it was eight weeks pregnant at that stage when I was booked in and I was heavily pregnant when I was weighed and Yeah, I was congratulated, and I got rubber stamp. And that same week, I had a proper midwife appointment, they do kind of like the measurements of the bump to make sure and I ended up being set for growth scans because baby had stopped growing. I felt horrible, the amount of guilt that I felt from putting my baby and my body through that, and I promised then that I would never do that ever again. Because luckily, she was fine. And she started growing again, because as soon as I got that rubber stamp in my mind, and that was okay, there was actually, I did a lot of bingeing after that, because no wonder why I did a load of eating after that.
Laura Thomas
Yeah. Makes a lot of sense.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah. And this is why it worries me so much that in pregnancy and stuff, like Slimming World was recommend. It’s actually recommended.
Laura Thomas
That’s the thing. Like I was, I was like, Who let you go to Slimming World? Pregnant? Like, why is nobody? I mean, I know that they do all sorts of problematic things like, let pregnant people attend, and like they don’t screen for eating disorders properly, and all kinds of stuff. And what I’m holding in mind is just, you know, like, like you said, at the beginning, you wanted to have the birth that you wanted to have, and that is your right. And then just the just how oppressive these arbitrary BMI cut offs are. And the real, like tangible consequences. Because you are not the first person that I have spoken to who has been either put themselves on a diet to try and meet these criteria, or has been told to go on a diet because you know, of x, y, or z reason. And, and the fear mongering that comes with, you know, pregnancy and birth in a bigger body. It’s just, I mean, we could do a whole episode really on that, but no, thank you so much for for sharing, and I’m so glad and relieved to hear that everything was okay in the end, but just yeah, really feel how like the bind that you were put in at that time. And I know that you won’t be alone in that. And I spoke a couple of weeks ago to Nicola Salmon about the, you know, similar state of affairs in terms of fertility treatment, and then it’s the same through the maternity care pathway, if you can call it, care pathway, it’s just a sort of like, hamster wheel. So that was your that was your last foray into dieting. And how did things change after from there like, because I guess what you were naming before is this push and pull of kind of like, intellectually getting it in terms of Health at Every Size, intuitive eating, fat positivity, it all, intellectually makes a tonne of sense. But then embodying it is a slightly different story. What did that process from there look like for you?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
The process for me looked like really, really fighting with my own internalised fatphobia. And that’s what I’ve been fighting with, you know, thinking well actually going on that last diet with Sliming World whilst I was pregnant. You know, I look back and I look back with a lot of compassion for myself, because although I knew and I understood intellectually, that what I was doing was not honouring my body, it was not being respectful of my body or my baby. But I hadn’t actually, like you said embodied it, I hadn’t actually thought about like that fatphobia elements, and try to challenge that, at that point of time. As I said, it was really early on in that journey. And I think, when we first find ourselves, we might find ourselves in a place of being like, oh, you know, this makes a lot of sense. And actually, this makes a lot of sense of where, where I have gone with my body and my body story, and then actually putting that into play without kind of, I don’t find that people tend to start challenging, that was my experience as well. You don’t start challenging stuff, like internalised fatphobia until you’re a little bit further on in that journey. And it was really, really hard to kind of especially being a like, being a professional in like nutrition, trying to undo all of that learnt stuff, that we are told constantly, that fat bodies are ill, fat bodies are going to be ill and they’re going to have all of these comorbidities and all these things gonna happen to you and you need to sort that out. You need to prevent all of these bits and pieces so it’s been a lot of work behind that.
Laura Thomas
The layer that I think a lot about as well as is not just the the kind of like the physical aspects of fatness, but also the kind of what all I can think of is like the black marks on people’s character, like they’re liars. They don’t tell you the truth about their food journals. They’re lazy. So there’s all this like morality layered on to that as well that you can’t help but internalised when it’s coming at you day in and day out through the narratives in your, you know, coming out of the mouths of your lecturers, and then the papers that you’re reading and yeah, all of that stuff. So there’s like kind of this. There’s all the physical stuff, but then there’s the narrative around what it means to be fat as well.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah, I think for me, my journey was, I mean, really challenging the health side of things. And then I found myself going, it is bigger than that, because actually, when we start focusing on the health side of things, we’re really looking at ourselves being a good fat person being like, Oh, it’s okay, that person is fat, because they’re healthy. And actually, the narrative should be, it’s okay that that person’s fat, end of. And that’s where my journey, because my journey went from, okay, I’ve always been fat. I understand like, the concepts behind Health at Every Size, then moving more into that social justice element and going, okay, because I challenged the health side of things and then gone but this isn’t actually just about health. This is much more than that. This is the morality stuff that you’ve spoken about. And then I moved past the morality side of things, and obviously started looking at, you know, the wider intersections of social justice, and then also about how, like, the biggest thing was me sitting there going, like, yeah, I have never, and this is me as like someone who had been a small fat person, as soon as I had my children, I was a mid fat person. And with every child, I’ve gained weight, and I’m very comfortable. I don’t say that in like a negative way. I seen it as an extremely neutral way. That’s just the fact of what’s happened to my body. The more I sat down, and the more I kind of reflected and kind of challenge myself, I’ve sat then, that was when after kind of having a look at the social justice side of things. I sat there and went, Yeah, my body has never fit into society. And that’s with someone who’s got a hell of a lot of privilege and has experience. And I haven’t, I would argue as well, that I have a lot more privilege as well, because I’m also six foot. So I’ve always had people say to me, Oh, you don’t look like you’re that heavy because you carry your weight so well. So I’ve always had, like that level of privilege as well. So yeah, me sitting there being like, yeah, there’s been a lot of incidences where I have been worried that I wouldn’t be able to fit on things, or I have not fit in to things, like chairs, and come away with bruises around my hips, because there’s, you know, literally the other week went in to, it was a carvery, a famous carvery. And booked a table there hoping that they take the hint because we said about having a pushchair that we needed to have a good space, good area, put me in a, in a booth. And I was there with my family and my family are also in larger bodies as well. And we kind of all looked at each other. And was like, No, this isn’t meant for us. And it’s those kind of small, simple things I didn’t act, although I knew it, because I’ve been experiencing it. It’s almost something that I didn’t actually have in the forefront of my brain as being, it felt always felt like something that I had to fix about my body. It was my fault. That I had to do something about myself. Whereas painting that narrative in my brain was really, really, really helpful and a really big moment and being like, actually, it’s not me that needs, my body there’s nothing wrong with my body. It just is the size that it is. I you know, it doesn’t matter whether I do healthy behaviours or not, you know, really, it’s society that makes my body not fit. And that’s where a lot of my passion comes in, I think. Because I think it gets forgotten, obviously. Because if you’ve got privilege, you don’t actually realise how bad it is for people who don’t have the privilege that it is for you. And that’s where my passion has kind of led with like fat positivity and, and fat liberation now, really.
Laura Thomas
And we’re going to talk a little bit about some of the work that you’re doing around that in, towards the end. But I want to come back to your pregnancies because you’ve got three kids.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah,
Laura Thomas
So, and they are, do you want to tell everyone just gloat about your kids for a second?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah, so I’ve got a five year old and a three year old and my six month old and they are gorgeous and wonderful.
Laura Thomas
You know, what we’ve kind of touched on is the the well, I guess we were thinking about it more in the context of pregnancy, how damaging weight stigma is for pregnant folks and folks trying to conceive but I also think it’s really dangerous for anyone in that immediate post partum period, especially thinking about the messages we received about snapback culture and, you know, getting back into your skinny jeans and all of those horrendous messages. And I’m just thinking about it in the context of, you know, in your context, where you’ve kind of been on this, again, journey in parallel with having your kids and I’m wondering what the immediate postpartum has looked like for you, and how you’ve been navigating those messages of diet culture, this time around, because you’ve got a six month old, really little baby versus maybe when you had your first child, obviously, you’re more seasoned parent at this point, that factor, but I’m also wondering, you know, about, I guess your resilience towards the messages of diet culture at this point versus when you had your first baby?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah, I think I noticed much more within like, after my first baby about that all that snapback culture stuff. As soon as you’re in like all of those parenting groups, like I was in a lot of because I breastfeed, I breastfed each one of my children, I’m really lucky to be able to say that, and I was in like breastfeeding groups on Facebook. And it is just such a thing. It just comes up all the time, like people worrying about like even being like six weeks postpartum, how can I start losing weight? How can I start fitting back in my jeans, or there’ll be a post with someone’s picture on it being like I’m back into my old jeans again. And obviously, like at your six week check, you know, the midwife can actually give you some free weeks at Slimming World as well and tell you to go onto that and remembering that there might Slimming World like gets, well, there’s some funding, there’s some like exchange of money in hands at that, which is just absolutely gross. And I find, I think I speak more like from a breastfeeding point of view, because that’s been my main experience. Personally, I find that the biggest thing that people would say to me as a mom of like who was trying to, remember, if you’re breastfeeding, it’s going to help you lose weight, it’s going to, pounds are going to melt off of you. And I remember that being such a key message with all of like the breastfeeding information that I was given with my first baby. In my experience, actually completely the opposite. Breastfeeding made me gain a tonne of weight. It made me hungry, literally, it makes I’m not gonna even say made, it makes me hungry. Even at the six months stage, it makes me hungry 24/7, literally, I can be up at nighttime being like, I just need some snacks. I need something because, he’s fed so, I can tell how much he is fed every single day. Same as the other two as well. If he is fed loads, and he’s going through, like a developmental leap or something, I will be super hungry because he’s super hungry, and I’m making more milk. And other people will be ashamed about that. I remember posting something on those Facebook groups, being like, being really open about it. Like I posted a picture about me and saying, you’re obviously putting a trigger on there and saying about my weight gain and saying to people, people don’t talk about this enough, you can gain weight and you do gain weight with breastfeeding. And all these people are like, Oh my God, thank goodness, I thought it was just me, I think it’s this little unspoken thing. I think people think when they’ve finished having a baby, and you’ve got the baby there, then you need to focus on this whole, I need to get back to this pre-pregnancy body, as if nothing’s happened to us, when we’ve had this major event that’s gone on with us. And no matter how your feed and you’re still sustaining a baby.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, nobody talks about that. Even even if you aren’t breastfeeding, that just, that piece of caring for a child just it’s exhausting. You’re still up half the night. Like just getting to know this new person. Like you’re sleep deprived. Like you of course, your body’s gonna continue to change, even in that postnatal period and, and beyond. And like, yeah, just to speak to that narrative around breastfeeding. I remember, I’ve written about this somewhere, but I don’t think I’ve spoken about it on the podcast, that so Avery was in the NICU for two weeks after he was born. And we, and it was during COVID as well. So we like, we hadn’t seen anyone and then we met up with someone at the park, someone in our family. And the first question I got was, Are you breastfeeding? And I was like, Yes, this person was like, Oh, that’s great. Because like, it helps you burn more calories. And I was like, Well, yeah, but that’s really not my main concern given you know, the horrible birth we’ve just had, and the two weeks stay in the NICU. That’s really not what I’m thinking about right now. And then they were like, Yeah, but it means that you can eat cake every day and still lose weight and I was like, I’m gonna eat the fucking cake anyway, leave me alone. So angry. But I could not believe that that was literally the conversation that was being had. And they also know exactly what I do
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Oh, my goodness,
Laura Thomas
Which is another whole layer, but you know that that was the conversation being had? And not like, are you okay? How are you feeling? What can I do for you? You know, it’s just, it’s just absolutely bonkers to me. But also, to speak to your point, I feel like breastfeeding, I’m still breastfeeding. And I still notice that like, there are changes to my body. Who knows if this is because of breastfeeding, or because this is just my body? Not like, it doesn’t matter, that you know, we can’t control it, there’s really nothing I can do about it. But that’s, I mean, that doesn’t necessarily make it easier to sit with the, you know, the reality of the changes to your body. So anyway, sorry, there was a like a little tangent, on what you were talking about. So yeah, let’s go back to you. We were talking about sort of the messages that you received in that, especially I think, the first time around, having your baby being part of those, like forums and those groups. So yeah. How has that been your experience this last time around? Or, like, are you feeling you’re a bit more protected from that?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah, I think this time around, I think, because I’m further on, in, like my body story in like, where I’ve been going. I think I felt much more resilient. And I think it’s like when we’re, when we’re looking at, you know, all of these things that we’re doing to try and reject that culture and to challenge our own internalise fatphobia, I think, because we’ve, most of us have come from like a diet place. We’re waiting for that certificate. We’re waiting for like, a you’ve got there. But I think this is, you know, from my experience, this is just, it’s just a journey like carries on and on and on, doesn’t it. So where I am right now is that I feel really resilient. This time around, I haven’t really worried about whether I’m going to, what size of jeans I’m going to wear, like I will buy jeans that just fit me, I’ve got enough to think about I’ve now got three children, why would I want to be thinking about the size of my jeans and trying to fit into the jeans that I had, like, either like before, like this one, or the last one or the one before that, I don’t have the time or the energy to be able to do that kind of thing. So there has been that shift in myself, my body as well as literally a shift in my energy, like I don’t want to waste my time and energy thinking about my body right now. Like my body is just doing what it’s going to do. It has an ebb and flow, our bodies are supposed to change, my body isn’t supposed to look like what it looked like when it was 18 years old. It’s not supposed to look like what it looked like before I had my first baby. I’m three babies down the line. Like, there’s a lot of changes that’s gone on. And we want to be kind to ourselves about that. And it’s like, for me, I felt like after this one I haven’t, it hasn’t even been a conversation on my mind. It’s just this is, this is me, this is how I am. I have those conversations with my eldest daughter as well, because obviously, she’s obviously noticed a change in my body, she’s old enough to see, so she witnessed, she was too young to understand the difference between like her and my middle child. But she was definitely old enough to notice all the changes that was making on my body with the third one. And it’s really interesting to kind of have those conversations with her. And she talks about how my tummy looked when I had my third baby in my tummy, and how big it was. And I was like, Well, yeah, I had a baby in there. And I was like, but even if I didn’t have a baby in there, and she was like, well, your belly is bigger than what it used to be. And I said but that’s that’s lovely, though, isn’t it? And obviously I can say this from once again, a point of privilege that I’ve been able to have babies but I can say well my belly has each one of my three babies in there. And I love that it’s had this change and I can, I’m in my own personal journey that I can say that and she’ll really lovingly, it’s really cute. She’ll really lovingly stroke my belly and be like, it’s so lovely. Isn’t it mummy, it’s like jelly. And I’d be like Yeah, it is like jelly. I like jelly as well. And it’s really really sweet and I love having those conversations with her and you know I want her to, I want all of my children to understand that our bodies change and you know mould as they grow grow older and they’re supposed, that’s what they’re, we don’t question it with them being children. Like I think in the last year of how much change has happened in like in my first and my second like in their own bodies. So much change has happened but we don’t see that as a negative we don’t see like, I know that my middle one she will do a, put on weight and then do a massive growth spurt. And we don’t then be like, Oh God, now you’ve got to, we’ve got to put you on some kind of. I know society does when they get weighed.
Laura Thomas
Well, that is Yeah, no, that’s a whole other thing. All I was gonna say there is that we look at the growth curves and their red books and we think, Oh, they’re supposed to follow this neat line. But a lot of times, if we plot their height and growth, it kind of looks more like stairs than like this straight line because they have to lay down energy stores in order to grow upwards. And what terrifies me is when that happens in a sort of bigger way around puberty, when they’re getting ready to really go through intense intense changes in their bodies, that additional weight gain breaks a lot of parents out because of their own internalised anti fatness. And that’s a point where they, they put kids on the diet. And that’s also a point where kids are so vulnerable and susceptible to eating disorders. And so that terrifies me. So I think, every opportunity that I can get to say, like kids are meant to gain weight is like I get that in there. But also, I think what you’re speaking to is this idea that I come up against quite a lot in my clinical practices that people think that they get to the age of like, 17, 18, and their bodies stop changing. That they’re like, that’s where they’re meant to be. And we don’t realise that even in that early adolescent period, or that early adulthood, our bodies go through a tonne of changes still even like in our early 20s. And that our bodies aren’t these static beings, that they’re constantly changing, constantly evolving. Sometimes it’s through having a baby, sometimes it’s through injury or illness or menopause, or any number of different just life, just living. We’ve just endured a fucking pandemic. Cut yourself some slack if your body’s changed, that’s what they’re supposed to do. But yeah, we we kind of have this really fixed idea that, you know, by the time we get to our early or late teens, that that’s that’s our body fully developed, but it’s so far from that.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
And isn’t that crazy though, that people, that we internalise that from the media and we’re supposed to, I mean, this is part of a much wider conversation, isn’t it? Like we’re supposed to, like, especially as women, we’re supposed to look youthful, we’re supposed to look young, where the you know, youth is shown as being attractive, thinness is obviously an ideal, that’s where everyone should be heading towards having a thin young looking body. And that is just so out of the majority of people’s like, not capabilities, we’re not, we’re not supposed to be doing that, our bodies are moving and changing every single day, we’re getting older, and our bodies are ageing, whether we like it or not. And if the thinness ideal, and internalising that, then it’s understandable so many people having the struggle when their bodies change, and they gain weight, because we are told through every single angle that we should be thin, and that’s why she’s a fat person, every single fat person should be aiming towards thinness once again, no matter what you put your body through, like I put my pregnant body through a lot to try and lose weight, not necessarily to get to a thinness, but to get to a thin enough to be able to go into a birth centre, and that messaging is everywhere. But think about going onto a flight. There are so many people who literally will not buy aeroplane tickets, because they’re so worried about being able to fit in the seat. I mean, I could talk loads about all of that. But yeah, it’s just, It blows my mind. And it blows my mind in a way that I used to be that person as well. I used to look back at photos when I was 18 year old and think myself, that’s where that’s where I should be like 18, 19 years old, that’s where my body should be. And the reality is, my body is never going to look like that again, because I’m not 18 or 19. I’m in my 30s, a hell of a lot of, even if you take my pregnancies away out of that, a hell of a lot has happened in my life regardless of how many babies I’ve had, that is going to change my body. That’s the way it’s supposed to be.
Laura Thomas
Let’s mix things up a little bit. Another thing that I wanted to ask you about was how feeding your kids has changed. Or if it has changed as you’ve kind of learned more about fat acceptance or fat liberation, intuitive eating, Health at Every Size. Have you noticed any changes, have you had to have conversations with your kids around food? And I find this really an interesting thing to think about considering that you are a food teacher as well. So you’re coming at it from like so many angles.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Oh, I think I fed my eldest so differently, so differently. In comparison to how I like what avenue I went down with my second. And I think I mean, obviously there’s going to be differences between the two of them because they’re people as well. But I do think that there are differences because of the different ways that I did things. When I, as I said I was still quite early on in my journey with like, when I was like, in pregnancy with and then had my eldest, I was really conflicted when I started feeding her because I was very much like, I want her to have autonomy. I want her to make decisions. But still was, I still had in my mind, like, what, I know it sounds awful. In the nutrition world, like, Ella’s Kitchen pouches, like ready prepared little jars of food, that’s named as like junk food for babies.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, it really really is.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah, it’s a frowned upon to use those kind of things, isn’t it?
Laura Thomas
Yeah, it’s like the equivalent of an adult going and getting a ready meal. Right? And like all the stigma associated with that, which like, I’m not at all agreeing with that in any way, shape, or form. But, I totally, I get you on the baby food thing. And like, I didn’t end up using much like baby food with Avery. And a lot of it was to do because I have very conflicting feelings about the marketing strategies that baby companies use, which is a whole other story. But also, yeah, there was still that internalised like, oh, that, you shouldn’t. That’s that, like you said, baby junk food. So like, I totally hear you on that.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
So I was trying to move through, I suppose, I did a lot of work of food neutrality with my own, with myself, and almost bringing, like this new little person into it, I was like, I really had to do a lot of fighting against so much diet culture. It’s everywhere. You literally look in all of these books, like you have, obviously there are things that we you know, we have to be thinking about. Salt content for babies, you know, honey, we shouldn’t give to babies as well, you know, there are really good things that we should, you know, be really mindful of giving our babies. But when we actually look at the diet culture level of things in all of these, like weaning books and
Laura Thomas
Green foods first, it does my head in honestly, Jeanette, don’t get me started.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
It does my head in but I felt a lot of pressure as well to be like, honouring that, because also, I had a lot of friends, obviously, who were like, Oh, you’re a nutritionist. So what should we be doing? And I was like, oh my god, okay. I’m actually learning this myself, because I didn’t actually do a lot of child nutrition within my degree. That was really this was my, I did a lot of adult, that was the main thing that we did. So this was like a new thing for me as well. And I definitely definitely definitely did not give my daughter enough autonomy. I looked back at that and think yeah, this was unfortunately for my eldest a lesson learned. And we’ve obviously been working on that since I think it was probably when she hit one that I actually thought to myself, I’ve been telling her what she should and shouldn’t be eating way too much. Which you know, that that changed the direction that I started feeding her but I still noticed like those little bits in with her. My second she had easter eggs, they all had easter eggs, but they had easter eggs really recently. And my second one has just been like, I’m done, I just I don’t want any chocolate right now. And she didn’t, she didn’t wolf all the chocolate down. She didn’t, she just had bits of it on Easter Day, because she’d already had loads, well not loads of it, she had enough of it that she wanted to have before. I hadn’t controlled how much she, I just gave her the chocolate and went this is on the menu right now for you, you have as much as you want to have and I tend to ask them the question, how’s your tummy feeling? Because I like to get them to double check how their tummy is feeling. And she’s, she’s really, she’s over chocolate now. She’s actually like I keep on giving, like offering her bits of chocolate egg and she’s like nah. Whereas my eldest was very much like, I want to eat all the chocolate under the sun. And that was a really big difference. And we’re working on that. And she’s actually got to a stage really recently with her easter egg chocolate that she’s just like, I’m so bored of chocolate right now. And I was like, actually, that’s where I wanted her to get to. I’ve just been letting her have free rein of chocolate whenever she’s wanted to have it so then it’s not a thing for her. But I think that’s been the main difference between the two of them whereas I think I allowed diet culture way too much in the way I started feeding my first one whereas my second one, she hasn’t experienced any diet culture messaging. She hasn’t done any of that.
Laura Thomas
I think it’s such an interesting and also really difficult activity to do, to reflect on where diet culture shows up in your parenting. I literally have a post that I’m putting up tonight about this. So it’ll be up by the time this episode comes out, and I’ll link to it because I had that same thing, I think that you’re describing that like, around sugar. And also like I’ve done a tonne of my own work, made a career off of helping people externalise food rules. I started noticing them come up in myself and like I’ve had to actively push against them, I’ve had to actively break those rules to not only kind of challenge myself, but also I think, to really build trust with Avery, and to see that he can be trusted. And we had a really similar experience around Easter. On Easter day, I just left the, I got like the refillable eggs and put little chocolates inside them. And so he would go up and he would open it, it was so adorable, I just have to tell you this story, he would open one of his eggs, and there were like two little half eggs inside each one. And he would take one and he would try and offer the other one to me. And we, and so one thing that we were doing was modelling, I’ve had enough thank you, you know, we would eat some of them with him. But then when we reached our limit, we would let him know, you know what I’m feeling full. And he really pushed me on Easter Day, he ate a lot of chocolate more than I was comfortable with. But it’s been so interesting that the next few days, and well what we’re like a week and a bit past Easter, and I’ve still been putting those little half chocolate eggs on his tray and he doesn’t even, he’s just not fussed. And, and so it is like a really difficult thing to just like, take a breath, let go and see what happens. But I think it’s so, it is so rewarding when it does. And just like kind of going back to what you were saying at the very beginning, I’m thinking a lot about this question of like, why is it so important to protect our kids from diet culture? And you know, one thing that you said at, really at the beginning that I never even really thought of, but really resonated a lot with was this idea that, you know, when they get to the point in their lives, where they’re taking exams, and they’re like studying for things, it will impact their, you know, how well they do at school. And not that I think that doing well at school is the be all and end all but I also don’t want my child under fuelling themselves to meet some arbitrary ideal that has been set out for them to the, to the point that it’s it’s harming, literally not giving them enough energy to fuel their brain. Like, why? And I resonate, because I did that myself. Like, I know exactly that experience that you were describing, and just not being able to focus, not being able to concentrate, which I have problems with anyway, just because of how my brain is wired. But then when you add on that layer of like, of not having enough food, just yeah. I think so having like setting that tone, right from when they’re little like you can trust your body you can eat the things that you enjoy, you can eat enough to fill you up. I know that there’s privilege in that in terms of food security, but you know, like, helping them build that trusting relationship with food and their bodies right from the very beginning. It’s going to have, it’s going to protect them from all of the stuff that we’ve just spoken about for the last almost hour. So yeah, is there anything else that you’ve thought, like noticed in terms of, of diet culture showing up in your parenting or, or like how you fed your, like how you’ve had to shift how you feed your kids, or the other thing that I was thinking about in terms of feeding your kids is how that looks for you as a fat parent? And if that’s something you’ve kind of butted up against?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I think it is. I think being a fat parent, almost, oh this is gonna sound, when you’re a fat parent, you’re trying to navigate, obviously introducing solids and stuff. And also just being a fat parent in general. You have this automatic feeling of being a failure, you’ve already started off failing your children, especially from the messages I mean, as I said, I was really lucky, been really lucky being in a small fat with my first pregnancy, because I think the first pregnancy is where you experience the highest amount of weight stigma because gatekeep for that first pregnancy. So much. My second pregnancy and third pregnancy there was a lot of messaging around kind of like weight loss and stuff. And I’ve spoken to a lot of people who have been super fat or infini fat and parents as well. And it’s pretty universal, that kind of that feeling of I’ve already you know because of my weightI’ve already failed my children, and then that pressure of needing to, you know, in inverted commas, get it right, so they don’t, they’re not going to look like you. And I think that’s the biggest thing that we come up against being fat parents. For me, for me, it feels like a rebellious act, to be able to give my children sweets, chocolate, you know, what is perceived as foods that are, quote unquote, toxic and unhealthy and bad. And on that should never give, you shouldn’t give children, how dare you give a toddler a McDonald’s, you know that kind of, those things that really are shamed in society to actually do that. And then being a fat parent, there’s even more shame, because it’s like, Oh god, why do you want your child to look like you? So there’s definitely that extra added element of not just diet culture with your children and bringing up your children, there’s that huge pressure and therefore we don’t want to, I remember that from, you know I remember not feeling that pressure but seeing that pressure, as I said, my family they’re you know, most of them are in larger bodies themselves. And it was almost this wanting to protect us as children from not being in the same bodies as them. Whereas actually, that’s completely in my genetics to be in the body that I am now, like, I have no control of that, my family don’t have control over that. But they wanted to protect us against that, because obviously, they’ve lived a whole life of, you know, anti fatness, and being in a society that hates their body so much they wanted, they didn’t want that for us. So it was a messaging that we received. So it’s very much trying to break that cycle. And so for me, it is what I said earlier, I think that’s part of like the fat liberation side of things that I am really passionate for now, it’s rebellious. I will openly talk about my children eating these things and saying that, and I will go out of my way to like, say to my friends, or people who are questioning me about things like, yeah, they can have these things. And there’s no shame in them having these things. And you can see them oh, like, their bodies are their bodies, and as long as they are listening to their bodies, and they have their autonomy over themselves, then I’m happy and then I’m doing well as a parent in that respect, or as well as I can do. It’s, as I said, like, yeah, it feels rebellious. But I kind of love that now.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I’m really, I really like the way that you frame that as something that you’ve reclaimed almost for you and for your kids. And that’s something that that diet culture and anti fatness can’t take away from you. And at the same time, just holding how difficult that that can be for fat parents, you know, receiving the message of like, well, you know, from, I’m thinking, like, from schools and from healthcare professionals and just society at large, like, well, the worst thing that could happen to your child is for them to look like you and have bodies like yours like that just, oh, feels like a really,
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
It’s horrible, isn’t it?
Laura Thomas
Yeah. Yeah. And I’m also thinking, and I don’t know, if you’ve thought about this, like that level of, kind of buffering that you have as a nutrition professional, of like, well, yeah, but I’m a nutritionist, and I say that it’s okay, versus, you know, someone who doesn’t have that background and education and expertise, the kind of like navigating those conversations, like you have that, just like layer of legitimacy, right, as a nutrition professional.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah. And it makes it easier for me, it makes it easier for me to be confident in what I’m saying. It makes it easier for me to internalise that, you know, you know, all of these messaging, it makes it easier for me to rebel against that. And whereas other parents who, who, you know, aren’t nutritionists aren’t in this space, find it incredibly difficult. And I mean, it’s not impossible to be able to come to a place that you just feel, you feel rebellious, and you feel like you are comfortable and confident in the messaging, but I do think it takes a lot more work, and a lot more time to be able to get there. But it’s totally possible, though.
Laura Thomas
And so what would you say to those parents who, who want to rebel and be like, I want my kids to have a different relationship with food and their bodies then than I did? What advice or little thought would you like to leave them with?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I’d like to leave them with, would like to leave them with a lot more. What would I want to leave them with? Let me have a think. Being part of this whole body story and externalising anti fatness and rejecting diet culture, you’ve been doing it for yourself. And if you can do it for yourself, you can do it for your children as well. And it is harder. But you can do this. And there are people around you who are on social media, there are communities out there, that are supporting you and being your cheerleader, and are just there for you. So I would say try and find a nice community space, and to be able to help you internalise all of the kind of all of the things that you know that you feel confident in about your food neutrality, about, you know, being able to find that fat acceptance, be able to find fat liberation, I mean, spaces like Body Happy Org are great to be looking at, to be able to see that the messaging is trying to be pushing into the mainstream as well. And it will get there in time. But for now, in this moment that we’re in right now, you can do this, and I feel confident, and I’m your cheerleader, as well.
Laura Thomas
Oh, I love it. And we’ll talk about where you can find Jeanette in just a second. And I’ll link to Body Happy and I’m hoping to have Molly on the podcast as well soon. So okay, I feel like there were tonnes and tonnes of things that I could have talked to about, maybe we’ll have to do a part two at some point. But I do really want to quickly talk about the work that you’re doing with beat weight stigma, just because I think it’s really, really important. So can you tell us first of all, a little bit of background about how this came about? And what you’re trying to do with this?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah. So me and Emma Green, who is @emmafitnessPhD on Instagram, started talking. She had put some information about Beat and anti fatness and a few things that they posted mainly with linking binge eating disorder to the NICE guidance. And NICE guidance for binge eating disorder is pretty shockingly horrendous. And she yeah, she tried to actually point out that to them, but they weren’t really receptive. So she was, she was going on, on a very well needed rant on her stories. And we started getting into a conversation about it. And we were both like, Why is no one doing anything about this? Like, why are people, once again, fat people are being ignored, people are being silenced, you know? Fat people are getting like the worst of the treatments, not even getting access to treatments, you know, just loads of things. We were both really angry, really frustrated.
Laura Thomas
There’s a lot of gaslighting that goes on in eating disorder treatment when it comes to fat people. Yeah, I’ve experienced it in like clinical practice, trying to get appropriate support for folks. And it’s it’s horrendous, atrocious,
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
We were basically just really angry about it. And we both went, why don’t we do something about it? Like, let’s try. We know how big the task is, we know how massive the task is. But we’re like, even if we can challenge Beat, and sow seeds in their mind. And maybe that can grow into something, at least we are doing something. So that’s what we did. So during eating disorder week, we launched our campaign, and we wrote an open letter to Beats which included loads of evidence, like all the science like background behind things and literally pointing out where they’re stigmatising when, you know, all of these other bits and pieces. Loads of people backed and supported and it was, you know, absolute fantastic. And during that week, they said, Yeah, we’re going to meet with you, we will meet with you, we’ll discuss all of this stuff about weight stigma in eating disorders, we’ll have a talk, we had a date booked, a time booked in, and on that day, cancelled two hours before. And they said they would reschedule and they never rescheduled. And so it kind of snowballed from that. We kind of went okay, we’re going to try and keep Beat’s attention. But also, we know that this is going to be difficult so we need to create a safe space for fat people because it is the least that we deserve. Like the stuff that is out there with main mainstream weight stigma at the moment. It’s it’s not even the floor of what we should be experiencing as fat people, we, you know, we should have the same quality of treatment and access to treatment as anyone else. So we decided that we were going to setup a website and the website would have information of that positive eating disorder specialists that we are going to vet ourselves and also try and get enough money for like a marketing as well because we want to get out of the echo chamber. We want to try and widen our reach. So we’re hitting people that need to see I’m messaging to try and see what’s happening at the moment is not okay, but also to reach people who actually really need our help as well. So that’s kind of where we’ve kind of come, like come to, but a whole lot of frustrating stuff has happened in that as well.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I’m sorry that that has been your experience and that they, you know, didn’t make good their promise to meet. And it’s just like really poor performance by Beat, like they should be including fat folks at the table. And not just at the table. That’s such a, like, weird way of putting it, but like, should be looking to fat folks to direct their messaging around well, first of all, to look at where there’s weight stigma showing up, and secondly, to ask them, okay, so what does fat positive treatment look like? How can we support people accessing it? All the stuff that that you are now taking on yourself.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Yeah, I think the a problem is, is that they think there’s literally, there’s a video with Joshua Wolrich, on Instagram. And I actually took kind of like a video of that and put it onto one of our posts, where the clinical director says that she knows 100% that people going through Beat services do not experience weight stigma, whereas, and she said, her actual words we’re 100%, which is a big claim to make.
Laura Thomas
That’s a huge claim
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Massive claim to make. We know that, obviously, that is not true. And I think this is what we’re butting up against at the moment, they don’t think that this counts for them, they don’t think that this is an important thing for them. They truly think that they are, you know, fat positive, and, you know, they’re giving everyone the same treatment. Whereas we know from the lived experiences that we’ve actually collected that that is far from true. Unfortunately, I would love to be able to say that 100% I’m with her but no, it’s not happening. And that’s evidence from other communication that we’ve had with them as well, where they’ve really tried to distance themselves from our, our messaging and from our letter and information that we’ve given them. Unfortunately, we have enough to be able to say that actually, you can’t distance yourself from this, this is very much within your organisation as well.
Laura Thomas
Well, and it’s it’s so much bigger than Beat as an organisation. For anyone who doesn’t know Beat is a National Eating Disorder Association within the UK. It’s so much bigger than Beat, it’s all treatment, basically all treatment in the UK. So yeah, it’s a really tough project that you’ve set for yourself, a really, really tough thing. And so what I just wanted to mention as well is that you are crowdfunding for donations to help support this work. So I’m going to link to that in the show notes. And so I know that not everyone is in a position where they can support financially. But even if it feels safe, it feels okay to share on social media or just to kind of like follow your Instagram page. Because even that is sending a message to Beat and other organisations like this is worthy, this deserves your time and your attention and we need to pay attention and listen to lived fat experience when it comes to eating disorder treatment. So thank you so much for putting that together. Before we go, do you want to let everyone know where they can find you on the internets? And where you are on social media?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I am the mindset nutritionist on Instagram, I am freshly on Twitter. If you just search for Jeanette T Wessen on Twitter, I’m on there as well, on both of those. They have my link to my website but at the moment I am on maternity leave. So I’m not taking on new clients.
Laura Thomas
I was just thinking, that you’ve been doing all of this stuff while you’re on maternity leave.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I’ve been a very busy person. I’ve breastfeeding very well as was said before. Sit there, be like, okay, let’s do a campaign from my phone whilst breastfeeding my baby. Yeah.
Laura Thomas
I do remember in those like first couple of months where you’re just pinned under a sleeping baby, that you do a lot of stuff on your phone, but then, I mean, you also have to have the brain capacity for that. Speaking of brain capacities, I forgot to do that’s my jam. So at the end of every episode, my guests and I share something that they have been really into at the moment. So what is your jam currently?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Oh my God, I don’t have that.
Laura Thomas
It was on the form Jeantted, you pressed the button to say you had something picked out so this is on you.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
What was it? What was it? You tell me.
Laura Thomas
Well because I didn’t ask because I wanted it to be a surprise. I just asked you to have something like picked out. I didn’t ask you to like specify what it was. Okay, I’ll go. I’ll go first to give you a second to like think about things. I feel like life has been very boring lately, and I probably need to get out a bit more but one thing that I was really enjoying over the bank holiday weekend when it was glorious sunshine is we went to Holland Park to meet some friends, which is like there’s some cool stuff there anyway, but it’s also right next to the Design Museum. And outside the Design Museum, they have just like a fountain that kids can run in. And it wasn’t even that hot. But my almost two year old was like, in, in in and ended up going through like two changes of clothes. Eventually, we just had to strip him down into his nappy, and he was just running around this fountain, you know, like trying to catch the water, just absolutely pure, unadulterated toddler joy. And I just thought, like, that’s what joyful movement is. That’s what being fully embodied is. And it was, yeah, I’m just really excited for fountains and summertime and good weather. So that’s my jam at the moment.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Oh, I love it. It’s so lovely.
Laura Thomas
There’s so much that kids can teach us about embodiment. Like it’s a whole thing.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
So much. Actually, my eldest just, I was talking to her about joyful movement the other day, and she was like, so we do exercise in PE. And she said she didn’t, she doesn’t enjoy PE and I said, Well, that’s okay and spoke to her about joyful movement. But playing with your friends and all of that, that’s all joyful movement and playing with your sister, that’s joyful movement. And she stopped me and she said, No, when I play with my sister, it’s loving movement. I know. Yes, it is. It is loving movement. Isn’t that so cute?
Laura Thomas
That’s so cute. Aww. Is that your jam?
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
I’m going to say that’s my jam. Because that’s so adorable.
Laura Thomas
Loving movement, that is very sweet.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Loving movement.
Laura Thomas
Very sweet. I love it. Do they have a good relationship? Generally speaking, or are they, I guess they’re a bit too young for the like whacking each other stage.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Oh, no, they’re definitely at that stage. They have a love hate relationship. They will be playing sweetly, one minute. And then the next minute, they will be silent. They’re very good at silent arguments right now. And they go silent, because they know that I’ll come and say something if it’s really loud. But now I know that everything’s really silent, it’s actually worse when they’re silent. Because usually, they have a face of thunder on the two of them and they’re pulling a toy backwards and forwards to each other trying to snatch it off of each other, then swiping each other at the same time whilst they’re doing that. So I’m like,
Laura Thomas
Wait until all three of them are piled on each other.
Jeanette Thompson-Wessen
Well it’s usually when I’m feeling my third child. So I’m usually standing there with like a boob out belt trying to feed him, at the same time as trying to get them to different edges of the room so they’re not arguing and getting the pushchair out of the way. This old pushchiar. It’s a interesting life, but I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Laura Thomas
Aw I love it. I love the idea of loving movement. So thank you for leaving us with that. Jeanette, it’s been so great to talk to you. I’m so excited that we got to do this. And yeah, I hope we can catch up again soon.
All right, team. That’s this week’s show. If you’d like to learn more about today’s guest, then check out the show notes in your podcast player, or head to laurathomasphd.co.uk for more details or the full transcript from today’s episode. Big thanks to Joeli Kelly for editorial and transcription support. And if you need to get in touch with me then you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk or find me on Instagram @bub.appetit. And if you enjoyed today’s episode, then you can help the show reach more people by subscribing on your podcast player and sharing it with a friend. Alright team. I will catch you next Friday with a brand new episode.
See you there.
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