Hold tight folks, this is a good one! This week, I’m chatting with Molly Forbes, journalist, campaigner, author of Body Happy Kids and founding director of the Body Happy Organisation.
Molly gives loads of practical and pragmatic advice for how you can begin to open up conversations with your school to stomp out diet culture and support positive body esteem. It’s such a helpful episode for anyone who has wondered whether or not schools are undoing some of the things that you’re doing at home to protect your kids’ relationship with food and their bodies.
Some of the topics we cover include:
- How influential schools really are when it comes to supporting/disrupting body esteem.
- Where diet culture creeps up in schools in areas like school uniform policy.
- How we can open up conversations with schools about diet culture, and how teachers can get their schools on board with an anti diet culture policy.
- How you can begin to tackle food policing policies.
- National weight measurement programme and why you should opt your kiddo out.
if you enjoyed today’s episode, then you can help the show reach more people by subscribing on your podcast player and sharing it with a friend!
Show notes:
- Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter
- Follow Molly on Instagram
- Follow Don’t Salt My Game on Instagram
- Check out Molly’s Instagram post school uniform policies
- Check out Dieticians 4 Teachers on Instagram
- Laura’s Website
- Body Happy Org Website
- Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It
- Buy a copy of Body Happy Kids
- Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course
- Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns
- Edited by Joeli Kelly
Transcript:
Molly Forbes
So I don’t think it’s a case of teachers waking up in the morning saying, right, how can we damage kids relationships with their bodies today, like that is not what’s happening. But I think that as parents, the more that we learn about this issue, if we notice it popping up in school, it is really important to speak to the school about it and let them know, Hey, did you know this is problematic? And did you know there’s another way of doing it, and you don’t have to do it like that.
Laura Thomas
Hey, team, welcome back to Don’t Salt My Game, where we are having conversations with game changers who are flipping diet culture on its head. I’m Laura Thomas. I’m a Registered nutritionist who specialises in intuitive eating and anti diet nutrition. And I’m the author of Just Eat It and How to Just Eat It. Today I’m talking to Molly Forbes, author of Body Happy Kids and founder of the Body Happy Kids organisation all about stomping out diet culture in schools. We’re going to get to that episode in just a second. But first, I wanted to tell you about some training for professionals working with kids and families that I offer.
So earlier this year, my colleagues and I released a new continuing professional development course for professionals working with kids, and it’s called Raising Embodied Eaters and it covers everything you as a professional need to know to support kids and their grownups to have a positive relationship with food and their body. We talk about why pressure backfires, why restriction leads to being obsessed with food, why conventional nutrition education, so things like the cubes of sugar or traffic lights activities are really damaging, and what you can do instead. And how you can talk to parents and kids about nutrition in a way that isn’t going to be harmful for them. We also talk about responsive feeding practices, the typical stages in feeding development like food neophobia, growth, and loads loads more. It’s a super comprehensive course with lots of further reading and information. And there are over 11 hours of video content and a monthly Facebook Live with me where you can ask more questions. Equity pricing and student discounts are available. And you can find them on our teachable page at learnwithlcie.teachable.com or hit the link in your show notes. All right, back to the show.
Alright, team today I’m talking to Molly Forbes. Molly is a journalist, campaigner and nonprofit founder. She’s the author of the book Body Happy Kids: how to help children and teens love the skin they’re in. And she’s also the founding director of the Body Happy Organisation, a social enterprise dedicated to promoting positive body image in children. Today we’re talking all about how to talk to schools about diet culture, food policing, and protecting children’s body esteem. It’s such a helpful episode for anyone who has wondered whether or not schools are undoing some of the things that you’re doing at home to protect your kids’ relationship with food and their bodies. Molly gives loads of practical and pragmatic advice for how you can begin to open up conversations with your school to stomp out diet culture and support positive body esteem. In this episode, we talk about how influential schools really are when it comes to either supporting or disrupting body esteem. We talk about the areas where we see diet culture creep up in schools in things that you wouldn’t have expected like school uniform policy, how we can open up conversations with schools about diet culture, and how teachers can get their schools on board with an anti diet culture policy, and how you can begin to tackle food policing policies. Lastly, we talk all about the national weight measurement programme and why you should opt your kiddo out. Lots of great stuff in here, even if your kids are a little bit younger and maybe you’re thinking about how you can have these conversations with your nursery or your daycare setting. It’s a really helpful episode so please share with anyone who feels that they could use some support starting these conversations. All right team, here’s Molly.
So we’re gonna start out with some quick fire action. So Molly, I’m gonna ask you a question and I want you to answer with the first thing that comes to mind. Are you ready?
Molly Forbes
Yup.
Laura Thomas
Okay, let’s do this. What subject did you like best at school?
Molly Forbes
English
Laura Thomas
Most refreshing beverage?
Molly Forbes
Elderflower, sparkling elderflower water.
Laura Thomas
You’re so, so quintessentially English. Tacos or pizza?
Molly Forbes
Tacos.
Laura Thomas
And if you could live anywhere in the world where would it be?
Molly Forbes
Oh gosh, do you know I think Devon. I think where I live. I like where I live.
Laura Thomas
Oh, that’s, I mean, that’s a great answer if you’re already there.
Molly Forbes
I think I’m here. I like it here. Yeah. Unless it’s like, unless it’s like in the depths of winter and then I want summer but uh, you know, this time of year I quite like it.
Laura Thomas
Do you have a hidden talent?
Molly Forbes
Oh, gosh. I always was really pleased with the fact I’ve got quite a flexible nose. I can make my nose go up and down at the end. Like it, like independently of the rest of my face. And it was always my party trick.
Laura Thomas
You mean like a bunny rabbit? Like that kind of…
Molly Forbes
Yeah, like but like, it doesn’t really translate to a podcast so I can like show you but I can make like the end…
Laura Thomas
Oh, yeah.
Molly Forbes
You kind of get it when I go sideways on
Laura Thomas
It really has quite a range on it. Yeah.
Molly Forbes
It’s quite a flexible nose, yeah.
Laura Thomas
Okay, that’s a first for the podcast. That’s new. I haven’t come across that before. But I can confirm that it does move quite far up and down. Okay, what is your favourite flavour of cake?
Molly Forbes
Carrot cake. Yeah. Specifically my mum’s carrot cake. She does a really good carrot cake.
Laura Thomas
Okay, but maybe controversially, with or without raisins in it?
Molly Forbes
Oh, I’m not so bothered about the raisins. But it does need to have the bits of walnut in it. To give it that bit of crunch. So I’m you know, if if there aren’t any raisins in it, then I’m not going to cry about it. But I do like raisins, but it’s the, it’s the bit of crunch in it that I like. The bit of walnut. Yeah. And obviously like real thick, nice icing. That like real buttery creamy icing. Mmmh, yeah.
Laura Thomas
See I don’t, I can’t do raisins in my carrot cake.
Molly Forbes
No?
Laura Thomas
No.
Molly Forbes
I know what, I’m more of a kind of, I mean, this is like vearing onto a whole other subject, but I’m more of a, like I don’t really like fruit in my savoury stuff. So don’t like pineapple on my pizza. I don’t really like raisins in like, I don’t, I’m not so, I don’t mind it in like sweet and sour. You know, pineapple. I can handle that. But other times I’m not so yeah, it’s not. But I can handle it in cake. You know.
Laura Thomas
So yeah, I just don’t like raisins. If it’s in like, you know, like, well, carrot cake. Or like sticky toffee pudding. No, I’m out.
Molly Forbes
Oh, really?
Laura Thomas
Yeah.
Molly Forbes
Where are raisins acceptable then?
Laura Thomas
Just in a little cardboard box. Like my toddler eats. Or turned into wine.
Molly Forbes
Yeah, I’m with you on that as well. Yeah.
Laura Thomas
Okay, we have descended already into chaos. But last last quickfire question. What is your favourite kitchen utensil?
Molly Forbes
Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh. That’s a really difficult question. At the moment. Does a utensil, can it be like an electrical thing? Or does it have to be like a spoon or something?
Laura Thomas
You have already put more thought into this question then I normally.
Molly Forbes
I’m gonna go with a toastie maker because we use it a lot.
Laura Thomas
A what?
Molly Forbes
A toastie maker. Yeah, so we use, we use it a lot. But it also, we’ve got like the waffle iron so you can make waffles in it. And I think at the moment, I’m sure we’ll like talk about this later. But like convenience food is like big on my list at the moment because we’re so busy. So with anything that’s kind of quick and easy like that. So the toastie maker is seeing a lot of action at the moment.
Laura Thomas
And I appreciate that it has more than one function, that it, you can also make waffles in it, like, I hate it when you have something in your cupboard that takes up loads of space that just does one thing and then you never…
Molly Forbes
Yeah, and you know, I think even has a panini thing as well. But we’ve not, we’ve not tried that one out.
Laura Thomas
I feel like you need to explore this option, Molly.
Molly Forbes
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. But at the moment it lives, it doesn’t even live in the cupboard. We’re using it so much. It just lives on the side. So,
Laura Thomas
It has it’s own spot.
Molly Forbes
Yeah, yeah.
Laura Thomas
All right, let’s get to the serious stuff, I wanted to have you on to discuss how we can support kids to have a positive relationship with food and their bodies whilst at school. Because a conversation that I have a lot with parents goes along the lines of, well, I’m doing all the things at home, I’m doing division of responsibility, I’m not trash talking my body and so on. But then, kids come home from school, and the parents find out that they were told to clean their plate, or that they had to eat their main before their dessert, or that there was a comment made about their body during PE or something like that. And there’s this real anxiety from parents, that the wider world is kind of undoing the really great stuff that they’re implementing at home. So I just wanted to get from you, first of all. How influential do you think schools are when it comes to either protecting or disrupting a child’s sense of embodiment?
Molly Forbes
I mean, I don’t want to, it’s really, it’s a really good question, because I personally think schools are really influential. And some of the experiences that we’ve had, that even some of us as adults have had as children, those experiences of school and those moments of like body shame, or learning about good foods and bad foods, or what we think health is, a lot of that can come from school. And I would say that, for some kids, their teachers, particularly if they have a good relationship with their teacher, their teachers are some of the most influential adults in their lives alongside their parents and maybe their grandparents and their wider family. So I don’t want to undermine that huge influence and responsibility that schools have. But on the other side of it, I don’t think that schools are necessarily more influential than parents. So I think if parents are aware of this stuff, and talking to their kids about this stuff at home, and setting up their kids with good kind of tools to use out in the wider world that that’s not to be sniffed at either. I think that we live in an age now, particularly with parenting and raising kids where there is so much information out there, even in the 10 years, 12 years, this year, actually, since I first became a parent, I feel like it’s overwhelming some of the information out there. And with social media there’s a lot of information and there’s lots of different books and everything. And it can feel overwhelming, and also quite scary to think you’re really working hard to do the right thing at home and raise your kids in, you know, the way with the values and the things that are really important to you. And so if they go out and do schooling, they’re getting mixed messages, that kind of undermine those things that you’re learning that you’re trying to help your kids with at home, that can be really upsetting, particularly if it touches on experiences that you’ve had yourself as a child and brings up stuff for you. So I think that it’s a really sensitive one. But I think that schools, I mean, obviously, I think schools are important, because this is what all my work is about is working with schools, trying to like make a change from the inside. But also, I don’t want parents to listen to this and then suddenly get panicked and feel like, Oh, well, there’s no point doing anything at home and everything that I’m doing at home is pointless, because it isn’t, it really isn’t.
Laura Thomas
I think yeah, um, since becoming a parent, like, really aware of how much pressure there is to, to, you know, read all the books and listen to all the podcasts and follow all the accounts on social media, and it can become really overwhelming and really difficult to know, where to spend your time and energy when you’re talking to kids. And, you know, as we’re going to go on to discuss talking to schools, like you have to sort of pick your battles as it were. And so, yeah, just kind of holding in mind, I suppose all the noise that’s out there. And I think, from my perspective, you know, schools are very, very important. And I’ve experienced that and a lot of my clients have had experience of, you know, an influential teacher saying something to them that has then you know, left a lasting impression in terms of their relationship with food and their body, and at the same time I want to help empower parents to recognise that what they’re doing consistently day in and day out, and the tools that they’re equipping their children with, you know, can buffer a lot of some of the more detrimental things that are going out and going on in the wider world.
Molly Forbes
Yeah, absolutely. Because you can, you can do all the things at home, and you can be really vigilant to diet culture at home, and, you know, the way that you’re talking about food and bodies and health at home, but at some point, our kids are going to go out into the wider world, and they are going to unfortunately, they are going to hear these messages from somewhere, whether that’s at school, or whether that’s from their peers and their friends as they’re growing up, or whether it’s from social media, you know, when they’re old enough to have phones and things, they’re gonna get it at some point. So we think that just consistent, I think you’re totally right, consistently, being mindful of how we talk about this stuff at home and, and challenging it and calling it out when we see it as well as is, is really important. That’s that kind of media literacy thing that I talk about a lot. And we talk about, you know, in the workshops and things that we do with, with teachers, as well as that, I think that it’s naive to think that these messages don’t exist. But it can also be really shocking when you’re, when you’re, when you become aware of how damaging some of these messages are. And particularly when you work in this space, where you’re, you’re, like super aware of what the research says. And you’re speaking to people with, you know, lived experience of weight stigma and eating disorders. And you’re working like in this space where you kind of almost have like a bubble around you. And it can be really shocking when you’re confronted with it in real life. And I still struggle with that my, I kind of will often be really angry or really upset because I feel like oh, well, what’s the point, but it is out there. And I think that just being my, you know, being the way that I approach it as a parent myself is to just keep talking to my kids about this stuff and be really firm about what we believe at home and what our boundaries are. And for me, it’s not, it’s not even so much about helping my daughters in how they feel in their own bodies, although that is obviously important. For me more and more as I’ve done this work, it’s become more about helping my kids think about how they can advocate for other kids. And, and the role that they play in this bigger system. You know, I mean, we all know these are like systemic issues. So what, what role are they going to play when they’re in the playground hearing another kid use the word fat as an insult. For example, what what role are they going to play? I mean, there was there was an episode not even that long ago, about six months ago, when my eldest daughter, she’s nearly 12. And she was at one of her school clubs, and she overheard one of her friends talking about another kid, basically, health trolling this kid, you know, and talking about this other kid behind behind her back saying, you know, well, what about, you know, it’s not healthy, that she’s that size. And my daughter was like, really? I mean, these are 11 year olds, you know? And in that instance, she said, Well, her body is none of your business. And she actually challenged it, you know, and so for me that, that is, that is really, really important. It isn’t just about helping my children on an individual level, it’s about thinking, encouraging them to think of what their role is beyond themselves. Yeah,
Laura Thomas
No, I love that. And I think there’s, there’s something so powerful in being able to disrupt a narrative like that, you know, like the health concern trolling and stuff like that, like, because it is just so deeply ingrained in society and so widely accepted that it’s okay to talk about bodies like that. So then if someone is disrupting that narrative and being like, planting that seed of a well, is that actually okay? Maybe not. That is a really powerful thing to have I think. One of the things that you mentioned a minute ago is that, you know, kids are going to receive lots of different messages, specifically from school, about bodies, about health about food. Where are, I wonder if it’d be helpful to maybe go through some of the messages and some of the places that that shows up, and then think through what we can do as parents, or even, I’m sure there are teachers listening or other caregivers, that might be thinking, okay, how can I maybe tackle a piece of this puzzle? So what are the main areas that you see diet culture and body shaming kind of infiltrate, you know, at the school level?
Molly Forbes
So I think there’s a difference between obviously Primary and Secondary School. And in my experience, in my personal experience as a parent, but more so with the kind of stories that we hear at body happy org, and the things that come up in the workshops with, with teachers and other parents, it seems to be definitely in the way that we talk about food. So right from, you know, little ones, getting these basic food sorting activities that are really popular, even in nursery where they’ll have, you know, like, a picture with a smiley face and a sad face. And they have to sort the pictures of the food into whether it’s a smiley face or a sad face, you know, right from the age of three, they’re learning to think about food in a really moralistic kind of way, of thinking about food as good or bad food. And then that obviously develops over time. And it can develop into more sophisticated kind of food sorting activities where children at a really young age are learning about you know, nutrition in a really kind of, like it’s beyond their cognitive development, it’s beyond what they’re able to process. So they’re learning before they’re even learning about where food comes from, or exploring food. They’re learning about, you know, the nutritional density of food and carbohydrates and sugar and things like that, and at a really young age, and then unobvious way in school lunchbox policies, so schools telling parents what they can and can’t put in their kids lunchbox, lunchbox policing is a really common one where kids will have food confiscated from their lunch box if it doesn’t meet the school lunch box policy. In terms of if their children don’t take their own packed lunch, a really common one is for in the dinner hall, they’ll have to ask permission before they’re allowed to move on to their pudding. So like, have you eaten enough of your main, and before they’re allowed to like start eating pudding, they have to like put their hand up and get permission so even like they’re being told, like what order to eat their food and and how much to eat it. And then at the same time learning messages about you know, not eating too much of something and eating you know, more of this. So there are these really basic kind of messages about food that kids are getting, but then on a wider level, they’re also learning about, you know, good and bad bodies. So then they’re equating you know, movement as something that they that also carries moralistic value. And they’re, they’re learning to kind of equate fat with being bad. And then also away from kind of the weight angle and body size. I think it also comes up in like uniform policies. So in the way that we’re still seeing really heavily gender, you know, stereotypes coming up in school uniform policies. Recently there was a big thing and I’ve seen this myself with girls being encouraged to wear like modesty shorts underneath their skirts at school little kids like five and six year old being encouraged to wear like little shorts underneath their summer dresses. Lots of schools not allowing you know, like basically saying this is a uniform for girls. This is uniform for boys. You know, you’re not allowed to wear shorts if you’re if you’re a girl you have to wear dress. And then also like I mean a lot of school uniform sizing is also difficult. You know, a lot of parents find it hard to get the right sizes for their kids uniform. That can often be an issue.
Laura Thomas
You mean that it’s often too small?
Molly Forbes
Yeah, it’s either too small. Yeah. And the way that I mean that’s a general that’s kind of an issue generally in the way that kids clothes are cut. So in the way that clothes that designed that designer’s like market and design for boys being like really practical, and often boxy or bigger cuts, and then the clothes for the girls and the girls range are really like, fitted. And, and I think for kids, you know, if they’re age nine, they want to be wearing an age nine blazer or jumper. But actually, if the clothes are cut small, that’s not really it’s not gonna fit, you know, they might feel like their bodies wrong if it doesn’t fit, you know, an age nine if they’re nine years old and doesn’t fit a nine year old sweater and this may be that’s primary school only offer that uniform up to age 13. Because by the age kids are 13. They’ve they’ve left school, that primary school, and actually maybe age 13 Only just about fits them or maybe it doesn’t fit them. So yeah, I mean, lots of places, and that’s in primary school. And then as we move into secondary school, just in the school curriculum, you know, in the way that food is taught, food tech can often be quite heavy on the nutritional information. There are a lot of teachers carrying their own biases around quote unquote, healthy eating. PE is still a really traumatic experience for a lot of kids, the way that PE is taught can often damage kids self esteem. So it shows up in lots of different places. But one thing I would say is I don’t I genuinely don’t believe I, I’m married to a teacher, and I’m the daughter of two teachers. And I don’t believe that teachers are deliberately setting out to make kids feel ashamed of their bodies or afraid or, you know, lower their self esteem or make them distrust their bodies. I think that this is down to this is a systemic issue, it’s down to lack of awareness on the teachers part, teachers carrying a huge amount of like unconscious bias that hasn’t ever really been challenged, that’s just constantly being confirmed by the wider messages in society by the fact that, you know, body image, as just a concept isn’t included in you know, PGCE training. So teachers kind of understand in a woolly way, the idea of the importance of mental well being but they don’t understand where body esteem fits into that. So I don’t think it’s a case of teachers waking up in the morning saying, right, how can we damage kids relationships with their bodies today, like that is not what’s happening. But I think that as parents, the more that we learn about this issue, if we notice it popping up in school, it is really important to speak to the school about it and let them know, Hey, did you know this is problematic? And did you know there’s another way of doing it, and you don’t have to do it like that.
Laura Thomas
So I got a couple of things I’m noticing like, all of like, the areas that this shows up in school, you kind of talked a little bit about like the school lunch rooms, and the food policing policies that they might have, or you might not even be allowed to take certain foods into schools. Another thing that I’ve seen happen, I wonder if you’ve come across this? I’ve heard of it from a few different people were the the class or the year group? I’m not sure I think it depends on the school are kind of divided up into teams, and they get points for eating healthy foods. And then the more points that the group gets, you know, they’re they’re more likely to win some reward at the end. But the really like, fucked up part about it is that oftentimes the reward is sweets. So it’s just like the most confusing and backwards message. So you need to eat the quote unquote, healthy food in order to get the reward of the, you know, the bad or the unhealthy food. I don’t think they’re bad or unhealthy foods, but that’s the framing and the language that the school is using. So then, like, it’s just this Yeah, it’s just so hypocritical. And yeah, like I said, confusing for a child to be caught in between those messages. And so there’s all of that. Then there’s the school uniform policy, which you you spoke to, and I thought it was really interesting. You posted something the other week where I think it was a little boy kind of like pushed back against the school because he wasn’t able to wear a cardigan and it was just the sweetest thing. And I hadn’t thought about it before. Yeah, well, there is absolutely no reason why a boy shouldn’t be able to wear a cardigan.
Molly Forbes
Yeah. And in that case, the parent, the boy challenged it with his mom, because he wanted to wear a cardigan, because for loads of kids and my daughters are saying much prefers a cardigan is easy to take on and off. You know, if you’re like five or six, it’s actually quite difficult to get a jumper off. And so they ended up being really hot because they can’t take the jumper off. So he wanted to wear a cardigan. And his mom said, Well, it’s not school uniform policy, and he challenged her. And she was like, No, you’re right. And she then brought it up with the school. And actually the school were really receptive to it. And so they changed their policy and made created a unisex, you know, policy that was much more inclusive for all the kids.
Laura Thomas
That’s amazing. And, yeah, I’ll link to that post so that people can read it. But I thought it was just a really nice example of how you know, to call the school and, yeah, there was a really nice outcome at the end of it. But yeah, so the school uniform is another sort of whole kettle of fish. And then something that we didn’t really touch on, but is is like, the actual classroom materials, well you did you talked about in terms of food tech, but like, the, the actual educational content that is being taught. And then another area that I think about it as, as coming up in schools is around bullying, and teasing. And you know, that that weight based bullying and teasing, which you spoke about before, with, with your, you know, with a real life example from your kids. So they’re all these different ways that, all these different places where body esteem could potentially be disrupted. And I think that feels like, it feels like a lot. Like my kid isn’t even at school yet. And already, I’m like, fuck, there’s a lot of stuff I’m gonna have to deal with. How can we begin to open up these conversations with schools? Because like, I know, for me, my default is like going guns blazing and be like, Why is it like this? We need to change everything. And my sense is that that’s probably not going to be successful. So how do you, yeah, how do you have these conversations with your schools? How do you talk to other parents about having these conversations?
Molly Forbes
Okay. So I’ll start off with a just kind of a little anecdote, flash stat. I would say, if I’m running a workshop with, like, 10 teachers, I would say it’s really common that eight out of 10 of those teachers haven’t ever heard of the term diet culture. We actively ask people in our workshops have you heard of this term? And most of them haven’t. And if they have and you ask them to explain it, and they’ll always say things like, fad diets and Slimming World, you know, or, you know, cutting carbs, and they’ll think it’s just doing a diet. So I think that it’s really important to remember that out in the wider world, outside of this, like, lovely kind of bubble that we,
Laura Thomas
Outside the Don’t Salt My Game universe
Molly Forbes
Yeah, out in the universe, still the vast majority of people don’t really know what diet culture is necessarily, they’re not aware of it. And they have grown up with all the same messages that most of us have. But maybe those messages have never been challenged. So I think it’s important to meet people where they’re at with this stuff, and just offer gently another perspective. So I think that really drawing on the fact that the teachers that are teaching your kids, they are doing that job, because they care about the children, they’re not doing it because it gets them a lot of money. Let me tell you, as a wife of a teacher, you don’t earn a huge amount of money being a teacher. Yeah, you might get longer holidays. But you know, the hours that you have to work, it is such a hard job. It is a really stressful, often soul destroying difficult job to be a teacher.
Laura Thomas
And that’s another thing that I’m keeping in mind as to why these conversations can feel so difficult sometimes is because teachers are being pulled in all kinds of directions in terms of like, you know, testing and hitting all of these points in the curriculum, and and they’re, you know, they’re gonna have other parents coming at them with whatever that parent’s priority is. So yeah, just like holding in mind the like really tough position that that teachers are in.
Molly Forbes
I think that’s important and I think that before. And I mean, gosh, I have been known to write some very strongly worded emails myself. And I know that that the temptation would be to do that. And don’t get me wrong. I think sometimes it is important to do that to say, actually, no, this isn’t acceptable. This has happened and it’s not okay. But there are other times I think, when just kind of bringing this, the teacher or the school into the conversation, and meeting them where they’re at is more useful. And you’re going to get greater impact. So one thing that we found with our work is that teachers are always hungry for resources, they want resources. It’s no good kind of saying all this, you’re doing it all wrong, but then not offering okay, you could do it like this. So, you know, just kind of saying, well, schools, schools now, luckily, thankfully, there is a much greater awareness on mental health and mental well being. And that’s, you know, in the last five years, even with my older daughter and her schooling, I’ve noticed, there is a huge emphasis now on raising awareness around things like anxiety, and particularly since COVID, we know that that’s had a huge impact on children’s mental well being. And so I think schools are starting to be aware of that, and also importantly, Ofsted are aware of this, and schools are being, quote, unquote, marked on these, you know, on how they’re, you know, helping build resilience, but also support their students with these issues. So I think letting schools know that actually, you know, body esteem is something that’s really valuable thing for you to nurture with your children in your care. If you are aware of this as an issue, not only are you going to be helping to support the culture of kindness that you’re trying to cultivate at your school, which will, you know, decrease the rates of bullying that I’m sure that you really care about in your school. But also, you might see pupil engagement increase, you might see more kids raising their hand in class, you might see, you know, more kids wanting to take part in PE if you don’t do it that way, and you do it, you know, you try some of these things instead. And just kind of saying, right, did you know that there are these resources. So at body happier, we’ve got a template letter that we’ve created, it’s like an information pack. And it comes with a template letter, because parents are really busy just like teachers, we don’t have any time do we. So we’ve literally done it for people. So we’ve created a template letter, they can just download from the website along with an information pack about the resources that we offer. And signposting to places where teachers can literally go online and just download a lesson template themselves, it’s done for them, they don’t have any time. Or maybe you know, they’ve never heard of it, they don’t even know where to start, it’s really overwhelming. So maybe they just want to sign up for, you know, a 90 minute workshop that might actually be manageable in their really busy week and might at least open the door to more awareness and conversations, and incrementally bit by bit raising that awareness and giving the teachers the resources to help them help the kids in their care, which is then going to support the parents. That’s the way that we’re approaching it. I think that there are times when actually do you need to get a bit angry? And I think that that is something that can be really useful. And I think there are times when those strongly worded emails do need to happen. You know if if your kid has been treated in a really unacceptable way. I’m thinking specifically of an example that I was shared with last year where it was a non school uniform day and a parent was absolutely distraught because their 14 year old daughter had been sent home from school for wearing unacceptable outfit to school and the daughter had had really, had already you know, 14 is a difficult age to be isn’t it? And and she was aware that her body was developing maybe at a faster rate than some of her friends. She was feeling self conscious. And she wore a tracksuit I think to school and like it was the hoodie that she had was like a zip up hoodie, and it was quite tight. And the school said it was unacceptable because it was too tight and the parent was so upset. And I actually helped the parent write a letter to the school that the school would be receptive to hearing. That was just kind of saying if my daughter had a different shaped body, she wouldn’t have been sent home from, you know, from school that day, this has really undermined her confidence is now she, she’s not going to want to come to school, she feels humiliated. And actually, again, the school in that case, were really receptive, and invited the parent in and had a chat and apologise, and admitted and accepted that they’ve made a mistake in that instance. I think it’s also useful to know like, when to pick your battles as well, because you could be emailing it every single day and, you know, it’s important to protect your own energy as well. So, but yeah, there are some cases where I think you do need to challenge it in a forthright way.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I think I’m just I was kind of like, stunned by that example, that you gave, like, I shouldn’t be, because I know that stuff like this happens. But it’s that, yeah, thing that you were saying at the beginning of being in the bubble a little bit. But then yeah, stepping outside of it. And remembering that there’s, there’s still a tonne of work that needs to be done. But just going back to what you were saying before, in terms of the best way to approach the school, it sounds as though kind of meeting them where they’re at, probably going through a teacher is what I’m hearing you say, and just kind of almost, you know, planting seeds that they can start to get a little bit curious about and then signposting them to resources and materials so that they can take that learning further. And then is your kind of hope and intention that from there the teacher sort of is galvanised to change the culture of the school or what how does, how does it go from being like an individual teachers thing that they’re taking on, to a whole school thing where you’re implementing policy change, and it’s being brought up at the PTA meetings and that kind of thing.
Molly Forbes
So I think any, any change can happen just with with one person. And so if you can bring one person, from your school, into the conversation and just make them aware, then that has the potential, they can then raise it with someone else. And so what I would say is, don’t wait until you see an issue before you raise it with your school. You know, your kid might only just be, you know, in reception in foundation year. And as far as you’re concerned, there haven’t been any issues yet. But that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t like send them a note, like send them an email, say, hey, I really appreciate him of how you’re looking after my kid and all the you know, brilliant opportunities that they’re getting, did you know about you know, this concept called body image? Have you really, I’m sure that you want you know the best for the kids in your care and you’re aware of you know, mental health is an important conversation. Did you know that body image is part of that? And I wanted to let you know about some resources that I found as a parent that you might find really useful as a school, as a teacher, and it might be sending that to your school administrator and asking them to distribute it amongst you know, the teachers, it might be sending it to the mental health lead at school, it might be sending it to your class teacher, or if you’ve got a good relationship with a school head teacher, sending it direct to the head teacher, and then the head teacher, you know, can then start to or the teacher, whoever it is, can then distribute that amongst their colleagues. Because actually, what I have found is that schools are starting to become aware of issues with poor body image and how body dissatisfaction is impacting their students, particularly the kind of older year groups in primary school kind of year six. And actually, it’s part of the PSHE curriculum, they have to learn about it. So they are starting to be aware, but in the feedback that we’ve had from schools is that they don’t, they’re sort of floundering. They don’t really know where to find the support and the resources. So they might be grateful to you for raising it and letting them know what support is out there for them. Yeah, and then the hope is that they then you know, really encourage them to share that information with their colleagues because ultimately, you need a whole school approach to this subject. And it’s no good if kids are having, say for example, they booked a student session with body happy org about one of my colleagues went in and delivered a really lovely session with the year sixes but then straight afterwards, the year six is walking out into the dinner hall and they’re getting mixed messages that completely undermine what they’ve done in that session in the classroom. That’s no good. So actually, what we’re trying to do is create resources that can be used in the classroom, but also offer CPD for teachers, so that they can really create as a whole school approach, and also, you know, lunchtime assistants and people on school governing boards. So when they’re thinking about things like uniform policies and lunchbox policies, they’re doing it from a place that isn’t going to cause harm. Because they have that awareness.
Laura Thomas
As you were just mentioning, lunchbox policies and just policy in general, I think, you know, in our raising body teachers course, that’s something that we talked about is a is a maybe overlooked way that parents or teachers, or you know, anyone in the in the school system can affect change, which is, you know, like, for example, looking at the bullying policy, oftentimes, bullying policy, makes no mention of weight as a protected characteristic. So, is that something that you could bring to the PTA, to the governors and sort of say, hey, look, this seems like an oversight, that we know that weight related bullying and teasing, teasing is the number one cause of bullying in schools. So why is this not addressed in our school bullying policy, and, and kind of start to work that into, you know, that wider systemic piece that that we were talking about? But how about like that, because I think this is a harder sell, I think, I think going to school and saying, we can’t bully based on, you know, someone’s body size, I think most people, there’ll be a bit like ohhh, but you know, childhood obesity, but they will, I think, accept that that’s a good idea to, you know, regardless of a child’s body shape or size, we probably shouldn’t be calling them names, right? Like, people can kind of get their head around that. I think the little, the thing that’s maybe a harder sell sometimes is why it should be okay for kids to have sweets in their lunchbox. And the whole sort of lunchbox policing, and that piece that you were talking about before about having to get permission to have your dessert. And, you know, being told to clear your plate and you know, all of the things that we know that kids, all the messages we know that kids receive at school. So how how do you begin those conversations?
Molly Forbes
I think that, again, it’s about education, isn’t it? Not with kids, with teachers. And I think it’s about I mean, we have a free downloadable school lunch box policy, that is, lots of schools are downloading it. I don’t know if they’re using it, I’m going to assume that they’re using it, but they’re downloading. And you know, that signposts to responsive feeding information, Division of responsibility, etc. But it makes it you know, it, it says it in really plain wording that is easy, that’s jargon free. That’s easy for parents to understand and teachers and really kind of straightforward, common sense way. And then signpost to further resources where people can learn more about it. I think that once you sort of spell it out, and you say, hey, you know, did you think about? Have you thought about what this, the impact of this approach to food might be? Did you know that, you know, actually, the evidence shows that when you start preaching to kids about what foods they shouldn’t shouldn’t eat, doesn’t mean they’re any more likely to go and eat like a bowl full of kale at lunchtime. It’s not going to happen. You know, making them aware of that can be can be really useful. I think it is really hard because and this all comes down to this whole the crux of the issue, I guess, unconscious bias and just the dominance of you know, anti fatness in society is that there is still this idea that, well, if we can just help kids not to be fat, then all these problems will go away, you know. And so the problem is placed on the kid’s body rather than, you know, looking at how we can change the culture. It’s like let’s just change kids bodies. Let’s not change the culture because it’s way easier to just change kids bodies, right? Or obviously,
Laura Thomas
Even though all the evidence shows that actually it’s not
Molly Forbes
Yeah and they don’t need to be changed, you know, but I think that that is the issue. But as soon as, I think that as soon as teachers start being aware of this stuff, and actually, one thing that we are seeing, lots of teachers have their own lived experience of this, you know, they’re human beings, just like everyone else. So you know, they’ve got their own, sometimes, something that comes up in the workshops will be that, you know, someone’s like, booked on an individual mix group session. So it won’t be like a whole session with all their colleagues, they’d like booked a place on an individual session. And sometimes they will be speaking freely about how frustrating they find, you know, just navigating the diet chat in the staff room, because, you know, three of their colleagues will be on various different diets, and they’ll be talking about being good today, or, you know, whatever. And they find that really difficult. And so they sort of think, well, you know, I don’t know how to tackle that. And so, one thing that I always think, and I think this is useful, and this was this was actually a piece of advice that another teacher gave me is that when teachers are in it because they care about the kids, if you can appeal to that shared cause that you teachers have. And, and rather than make it a personal issue for the teacher, and sort of so they’re feeling attacked, actually come at it from a shared sense of concern, you know, Hey, have you thought about, did you know that you know, this many kids are feeling bad about their body, and have you thought about, maybe not doing, not chatting about what you are and aren’t eating in front of the children, you know, when you’re chatting outside the staff room, just kind of coming at it from that perspective, rather than, you know, oh, you need to, your this is all for, you need to do it like this, I think, appealing to that sense of care that the educators have for your child, because they do care about them, they care about doing the right thing. So just encouraging them to think about it from that perspective, can be a useful way to bring them into the conversation. And then as the more they’re in the conversation, and it’s an ongoing conversation, and it’s not going to be one that you can just quickly have in a five minute pickup at school time. But as you know, when kids are part of a school, the more you get involved in the school, and the more you kind of, you know, chat to the teachers and do the parents evenings and you know, just kind of become part of that school community, then the more you’re able to shape change in a school from the inside. And that won’t just benefit your own children that will benefit all the children at the school. And that’s a huge act of advocacy, I think.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I really love that. And then I think at one of the questions that I had for you is, you know, what advice would you have for teachers who were feeling kind of overwhelmed by everything that we were talking about, or as you said, you know, just getting really irate at all of the diet chat that’s going on in the staff room. And so I really love that piece of kind of like finding that common ground, finding that shared, you know, passion for protecting kids and their welfare and safeguarding and all of those things. And using that as the foundation to have those conversations from. I think that’s really helpful. And yeah, is a more accessible entry point, then like, would you shut the fuck up about?
Molly Forbes
And of course, there is another one a really obvious opportunity that you can talk to your school about it or if you’re a teacher, it’s the NCMP, the National Child Measurement Programme, we haven’t even talked about that.
Laura Thomas
Yes that was the other thing! Do you want to explain what that is? And for anyone, because we have listeners who aren’t in the UK and also listeners whose kids maybe aren’t at school yet. So what, what is…?
Molly Forbes
The NCMP, it’s run by Public Health England. And it’s a programme called the National Child measurement programme. And in schools, well, it’s run by local authorities. And the easiest way for them to get the data of how much kids weigh and how tall they are, and all the measurements they take, is to do it by our schools. So at certain point in the year, a school nursing team will go into the school, and they will weigh and measure all the kids in reception and year 6 and it won’t be at a particular point in the year like for everyone, it will just depend on their own schedules. But it will happen. And you will be, if your child goes to school in England, and the school has not opted out, and lots of schools aren’t even aware that they can opt out they can. But that’s not, that’s a conversation for another day. But you, you will get a letter from the nursing team saying we’re coming in and if you don’t want your child to be weighed or measured, and you don’t want them to take part in that scheme, you do have to actively opt out you do not, this is really important, you don’t have to give consent, because with the GDPR, changes in 2018, the law changes around data, you now do not have to give consent, but you do have to, you can opt your child out of the programme. And if you don’t want them to be weighed, you do need to opt them out. And my biggest piece of advice is to also let your school know that you are opting them out. So you will, it’ll be like a tick box form that you’ll get and that will go back to the nursing team. But then also let your school know that you have opted them out. Because what often happens is that there’s a lack of communication, the nursing team don’t necessarily speak to the school. And they don’t necessarily flag the kids that have been opted out. And so when the class teacher is lining all the kids up to go out and be weighed, they won’t necessarily know that like, you know, three kids or five kids or however many kids have been opted out. And those kids will be sent through and there’ll be weighed anyway, and it’s happening all the time. So it’s really important that you do that. And you could use that as an as an opportunity to explain why you’re opting them out. And then to raise awareness about the importance of taking a weight inclusive stance on health. And you know why body esteem is so important and letting them know about all these amazing resources that are available to help them with that. It’s not available yet, but I’m working with Any Body UK charity, and we are working to, we’re kind of teaming up the Body Happy organisation and Any Body UK to create a really useful comprehensive guide for parents and schools about the programme so they can make an informed decision about whether they want to be involved and what steps they can take if they don’t want to do that. So that will be available for September when the next rep roll comes around. So but yeah, I think that that’s a good is a good opportunity at that point to flag this as an issue with your school and just say, Hey, I’m opting my kid out doesn’t have to be a big emotive of email, just say, Hey, I’m opting them out. Just wanted to let you know, I’m opting them out. And this is why, and you might be interested to know about this stuff that is really could be really useful for you in your classroom and your teaching.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, that that will be an amazing resource when it’s available. And yeah, for parents who aren’t aware, it’s reception that they get weighed and year 6, is that, right?
Molly Forbes
Yeah, yeah.
Laura Thomas
So just to know that it’s not every single year, but those are the two data points that are taken. And yeah, and in case it wasn’t clear. You know, there are lots of reasons why weighing kids at schools is not a great idea. But particularly because it leads to poorer body esteem, poor body image. And, yeah. Did you want to speak to some of the findings of the Women and Equalities committee report from was it 2021 that that came out? That kind of examined some of the kind of fallout from the weight measurement programme.
Molly Forbes
Yeah. So they, when the government kind of rebutted that the recommendation from that report was that they urgently evaluate, reevaluate the programme and look at other ways of obtaining the data. And they they effectively recommended that the programme to be scrapped. But the government sort of doubled down and instead said, Well, we’re gonna do it even more. And the data that the information that we have is that it’s not harmful. But from speaking with some of the amazing team at Any Body UK who include body image researchers whose job it is to look at this evidence and data and get the data. Actually, the studies that were being cited in favour of the programme were out of date, and there’s been better new evidence that has come in, that shows all sorts of things. That, I mean, for me. For me, it’s not even about how it makes children feel on an individual level, because the argument is often well, children don’t get told what their weight is. But what can happen is that if a child doesn’t meet that kind of narrow, quote, unquote, healthy BMI band, then the parent will get a letter home. And they’ll be told, you know, your child is quote, unquote, overweight, and, and then the parent will panic. And the parent would think, Oh, my gosh, and they put their kid on a diet, they could
Laura Thomas
Well yeah, they’ll go to the Start for Life website, which literally says, your child needs to move more and eat less like that is the advice that is given. It’s useless. And it’s, yeah, I won’t get started on that. But how is that helpful?
Molly Forbes
It’s really harmful. And, and so, yeah, so that, that if I mean, if the parent, luckily, a lot of parents get that letter, and they just put in the bin. But then some parents will get that letter, and it will make them worry. And then there’ll be made to feel like they’re a bad parent. And they’ll think, in order to be a good parent, I need to do this and this and this, because, as we’ve just heard, there’s so much pressure on parents nowadays. And there’s so much information. And they’re getting this from a reputable source from you know, the school and their nursing team. And, you know, they believe the people who are in charge. And it’s just the whole thing is just a mess. But
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I mean, I’ve seen it, five year olds on diets, and then their parents wonder why they’re going berserk around sweets.Yeah,
Molly Forbes
Yeah, yes. So but, but then, so that’s like on an individual level, but for me, it’s more of a like, it’s even more of a thing in that all it does, is it just confirms to children that weight equals health. And that it’s something that you’re in full control of and that some bodies are good bodies and some bodies are bad bodies. And that perpetuates weight based bullying, appearance based bullying in the playground, it literally gives the green light for that kind of bullying, it supports and conduct and promotes it and perpetuates it. And so I think that opting your kid out of the programme, even if you aren’t necessarily concerned, how it will impact your own kid. Actually, again, it’s a huge act of advocacy to opt your kid out, because it’s sending a signal to your child that we don’t support this programme. And I do think like chat with your kid, especially if your child’s in year six, you have a conversation about why you would like to opt them out, why you don’t think that they should do it. And do let them know because there have been times when Year Sixes have said, No, I’m not going to be weighted, when they’ve been lined up by accident, when they’ve been opted out. And they have refused to give consent on the data, the team hadn’t been able to weigh them. So again, that’s a really important piece of, a tool that you can give your kid in learning about body autonomy and consent. So that’s, you know, but I think that it’s also an act of advocacy for other kids in the class who you don’t know, they might be struggling with how they feel about their body, maybe they’ve been the victim of bullying in the playground. And actually you opting your kid out is standing in solidarity with all the children in the class, who even if your child doesn’t have issues with eating or have, you know, a difficult relationship with their own body, you don’t know what the other kids in the class are going through. And you doing that could be a real act of advocacy for those other kids in the class, as well as being a really great opportunity to raise awareness with your school about this important issue.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I think, you know, the more kids that opt out, you know, like, as you say, even if there are really no concerns about their own individual body image, it sends a message to the school that we don’t want this programme here. And if enough kids do that, then they’re gonna have to pull the school out and opt the school out in its entirety. So, yeah, strongly recommend opting your kid out if you’re in the position to do so. And like Molly said, it’s just a case of a little email to be like, Hey, I don’t want to, I don’t want my child to participate in this and you don’t have to give any explanation or any justification. It’s your right as a parent to opt them out. So yeah. We’ve kind of been all over the place here, Molly, but I’m wondering if there’s anything else any kind of final thoughts that you want to leave on in terms of you know, how to work with the school to change the culture, around body image and around food and the conversations around health.
Molly Forbes
I don’t think there’s any kind of last thing, sort of big piece of advice, because with all of, with all of this stuff, there isn’t necessarily going to be a right or a wrong way to do it. And it will depend on your relationship with your school, and you know, your own energy levels as a parent. But I would say that, don’t underestimate the power of having a conversation. And even if it feels, I mean, I am, I do not like confrontation. I don’t, I’m a people pleaser, that is something I’m really working to address. But, I don’t like being like the person that rocks the boat. But I feel really strongly that this is an important thing, which is, I’ve kind of ended up in a very wrong job, it doesn’t suit my temperment. I think that don’t underestimate the power of having a conversation and meeting people where they’re at, and just encouraging people to think about things from another perspective and be curious and don’t immediately assume that it will necessarily be a big fight, because it might not be, you know, the school might be really receptive and ready to listen.
Laura Thomas
And I think that, I don’t remember if it was, is it, Gwen from Dieticians for Teachers?
Molly Forbes
Yes!
Laura Thomas
That’s a great Instagram account, which I’ll link to in the show notes. But I was listening to a podcast that she was on, forget the podcast now. But one of the points that she made that I thought was really important and valid, and something that I should try and remember when Avery goes to school, is that, you know, you, as a parent are going to be having a relationship with this school for you know, what, six, seven years o you know, keep that in mind that, you know, when you’re having these conversations as well, that you might not get very far in that initial conversation. But you know, think about what that’s going to look like over the seven years. And also you don’t want to piss people off right at the start of that seven year relationship as well. You kind of want them, you want to, you want to work on their side, you know, get on their side, and work as part of a team. So I thought that was really important advice. If you’re like me, and you just have to get like really fired up about something and be like, why aren’t you changing everything right now. Maybe slow down a little bit and think like, Okay, we’ve got a little bit of time to make some changes. But also going back to what we were talking about at the beginning and if you don’t have the spoons, or the resources or the capacity to have these conversations with schools, then A) Molly’s done a lot of the like legwork for you so you can use her resources and templates and B) if if all you have capacity for is having conversations within your family within your home, then that’s also totally fine as well. And I think that that will go a long way to buffering some of the effects of the messages that we’re receiving in schools.
Molly Forbes
And be part of, you know, really utilise your community. So if you’re lucky enough to have a group of parents that you really get on well with at school, like maybe you’ve got, maybe your kids are going to school with people that you went to antenatal group with, or that they’ve even, parents that you’ve known for a long time. Maybe if it’s something that feels too overwhelming on your own, it’s a conversation that you can bring other people into as well. So band together, you know, use your parent, parent Whatsapp group, to encourage other parents to chat with the school as well. Or maybe bring a couple of you in and request a conversation with the head teacher. There are so many different ways of doing it. And one particular way isn’t necessarily the right way. But I would encourage you to try and have that conversation if you feel able to do so because it is worth it.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I think that’s really important is to try and find those folks that are kind of on your wavelength and and see if they’re up for having a conversation with you so that it’s not just all resting on your shoulders.
Molly Forbes
Yeah, because it can feel a lot if you feel like you’re the only person banging the drum for something. Yeah.
Laura Thomas
Let’s wrap up quickly with that’s my jam. So at the end of every episode, my guests and I share something that they’ve been really into lately it can be a snack it can be a book, it can be a podcast, can be just about anything. So, Molly, what’s your thing at the moment?
Molly Forbes
My thing at the moment is convenience food. So we are in, coming towards the end, thank goodness, I have a huge house renovation, like we’ve had loads of building work done. And we’re doing all the decorating ourselves. And so I really love to cook when I have time to cook, and I really enjoy, I find it like a stress reliever. But at the moment, I just don’t have the mental capacity. And I can’t give up any emotional labour to be thinking about what my family is eating this week, or you know what food we have in the cupboard to whip up a meal from scratch. So actually, I’m so thankful that convenience food exists, that McDonald’s exists, that those amazing you can get like the takeaway boxes from the supermarket. I’m all for those. I’m all for beans on toast and toasties, ham and cheese toasties and pasta and pesto, and just like quick food that doesn’t require any thinking. And this is against like, I always talk about how food isn’t just fuel, and it’s memories. And it’s all these amazing things. But for me at the moment for food is just fuel because I just don’t have time to think about it in any other way. And I’m so thankful that convenient food exists and that I’m not in a place anymore, which I was when I was a younger newer parent of feeling intense guilt around feeding my family convenience food.
Laura Thomas
I love that. I love that. And I think that that’s such a, I mean, we could do a whole episode on that. Yeah. But there’s so much guilt I think associated with feeding kids convenient food just because it gets labelled as like junk or processed or all this other stuff. And that is total rubbish. And sometimes when you’re just in survival mode, you have to get food out on the table. And there’s absolutely no shame in that. So, I love that. Okay, I’m gonna go to the total opposite end of the extreme. So my thing is going out for dinner. So my husband and I went out this past weekend, and we realised it’s our first date night this whole year. Yeah, just because a toddler, no support, COVID, all of the things. And so yeah, we went to a place. I don’t think it’s new new, but it’s like relatively new, called Mallow. And it’s like, kind of in the city somewhere like in like Central London. I forget where.
Molly Forbes
Aw, I miss London restaurants.
Laura Thomas
It’s part of you know, Mildreds, you know, the restaurant Mildreds, they’re like all over London?
Molly Forbes
I live in Devon, we have a village pub that has chickens and goats and that’s pretty much the only place I ever eat and when I go out.
Laura Thomas
In my head you, like Devon is close to London, but I guess not. My geography is shocking. Dave introduced me to Worldle?
Molly Forbes
Oh gosh yeah, I’ve come across that.
Laura Thomas
You’ve come across it? So like Wordle, but like for the world and like, yeah, no idea. None what’s so ever. I’m like, America? Anyway. But anyway, so Mallow is like part of it’s like Mildred. It’s like owned by the same people as Mildred but it’s like, elevated and it’s like, fancy but like cool fancy, not like stuffy fancy. And yeah, highly recommend. I’ll link to it in the show notes. But yeah, it was really nice to go out and like I don’t know how much of it is being the parent of a two year old or the pandemic but I just have not been going out very much lately.
Molly Forbes
Very exciting. It’s such a treat isn’t it, going out for dinner, having someone else cook and just the whole experience of like,
Laura Thomas
Not having a child sit on your lap? That’s a big thing for me at the moment.
Molly Forbes
I remember it well. That sounds so nice. When I’m eventually back in London. I’m gonna check it out.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe I’ll come with you. All right, Molly. It has been so great to speak to you. Can you let everybody know where they can find out more about you and the work that Body Happy are doing?
Molly Forbes
Yup. So we’re on Instagram so I’m, I’m Molly with a Y,
Laura Thomas
Is there another way to spell it?
Molly Forbes
Yeah, you can spell it with an IE. But mine’s with a Y. J Forbes, which is fo r b e s. So @mollyjforbes on Instagram, and we are @bodyhappyorg, so body happy o r g on Instagram, and our website for body happy org is bodyhappyorg.com And all of this stuff is there. All of the resources and lesson plans and information about workshops and books and all of that stuff is all on the website.
Laura Thomas
You’re doing such important work. So yeah, I’ll link to everything that you just mentioned in the show notes. And thank you so much for coming. It was really great to speak to you.
Molly Forbes
Thank you.
Laura Thomas
All right, team. That’s this week’s show. If you’d like to learn more about today’s guest, then check out the show notes in your podcast player, or head to laurathomasphd.co.uk for more details or the full transcript from today’s episode. Big thanks to Joeli Kelly for editorial and transcription support. And if you need to get in touch with me then you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk or find me on Instagram @bub.appetit. And if you enjoyed today’s episode, then you can help the show reach more people by subscribing on your podcast player and sharing it with a friend. Alright team. I will catch you next Friday with a brand new episode.
See you there.
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