It’s that time of the week again folks! This week, I’m bringing back one of my all-time favourite episodes with one of my equally favourite people, Nicola Haggett. We recorded this episode back in January 2021 alongside the launch of my second book, How To Just Eat It. If you haven’t already heard this episode, then I think it will have a lot to offer you. And even if you have already listened, I bet you’ll get something new and different listening to it a second or even a third time around.
Nikki is body liberationist coach and mentor, professionally trained and experienced life coach, certified Body Trust provider and Open Heart Project meditation instructor. Nikki is also a mid-large, fat human whose lived experiences navigating the world as a fat person are a super important part of her work. In this episode, we dive into the world of embodiment, covering things like:
- How writing our body story can be an act of reclaiming the narratives of our bodies
- What exactly embodiment is and how we can find examples of it in our lives (babies, kids, cats!)
- The difference between embodiment and more ‘performative’ or ‘hustle’ self-care
- How embodiment can help us to feel connected to our bodies without necessarily ‘loving’ or feeling ‘positive’ about them
- Reclaiming pleasure, appetite, autonomy and more
- Finding spaces that feel safe to reconnect with your body
As always, if you like this conversation, please share the love – give the episode a like on socials or share it with your family and friends, and hit subscribe to stay up to date on new episodes dropping weekly.
Show notes:
- Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter
- Follow Nikki on Instagram
- Follow Don’t Salt My Game on Instagram
- Laura’s Website
- Nikki’s Website
- Sign up for the Raising Intuitive Eaters Workshop
- Book in for a complimentary 15-minute Discovery Call with Laura
- Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns
- Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course
- Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It
- Edited by Joeli Kelly
Transcript:
Nicola Haggett
When we explore this within the construct, we really look at this place when we move from being aware that we have desires like that we have wants and we might have a crush and that feels like a really dreamy, nice place to a place of being desirable, and really starting to notice like who gets to have their desires celebrated or named or centred.
Laura Thomas
Hey, team, welcome back to Don’t Salt My Game where we are having conversations with game changers who are flipping diet culture on its head. I’m Laura Thomas. I’m a registered nutritionist who specialises intuitive eating and anti-diet nutrition, and I’m the author of Just Eat It and How to Just Eat It. Today, I’m rebroadcasting an older episode that I did with my friend Nicola Haggett, where we really dig into exactly what embodiment is, and how it can help us begin to reclaim a sense of comfort and connection and ease in our body. Especially if the idea of loving your body or having so called positive body image feels really hard. It’s an episode that I am constantly referring clients to. And if you’ve been struggling with how you feel about your body, then this is a truly special episode, and I think it will leave you with a lot to think about.
But before we get into the episode, I just wanted to give you one last reminder about the raising intuitive eaters workshop on the 28th of June, where we will cover the fundamentals of raising kids who are resilient to diet, culture and body shame. We’ll look at breaking the intergenerational transfer of dieting, disordered eating and body hate. And think about how we can protect kids’ innate embodied wisdom around food and support a positive relationship with food and bodies. So in this workshop, we’re going to cover why we need to throw the rulebook out the window when it comes to feeding kids, and let them have ice cream before broccoli and how we can build trust in our kids to get what they need. We’ll talk about a framework that can help you feel more relaxed about mealtimes while encouraging kids to have more autonomy. We’ll cover how providing supportive structure can encourage children to remain in touch with your internal cues for hunger and satisfaction, pleasure and fullness. I’ll give you lots of tools to deal with fussy eating. And we’ll talk about why cutting out sugar and other food groups can backfire. Plus loads of other stuff. I’m honestly not really sure how we’re gonna fit it all in. But we will, we’ll manage, I’ll also send you a copy of my raising anti diet kids PDF, which is a 10 page leaflet that covers the fundamentals of this approach to feeding kids that you can share with grandparents or teachers, or whoever is spending time with your kids and feeding them. So I wanted to just quickly answer a couple of questions that have been sent in about this workshop, just in case. You know, you were wondering the same thing. So the first thing is that the webinar will be recorded. So you will be able to access it for a week after we initially start. But you won’t be able to buy it later if that makes sense. So essentially, I’m going to be tailoring it a little bit to the audience based on the answers to some questions. They were asked when they signed up. So it will be most relevant to the people that have signed up at that time rather than people that might sign up after the fact if that makes sense. So I won’t be selling the webinar as a sort of individual thing that you can access on its own. Another thing that I’ve been asked is if I’ll be running the workshop again, and the answer is probably yes. But I don’t know when yet. I have a few other workshops planned that I want to run over the coming months. So my plan is to offer them first and then cycle back to this one like in a few months time. But I’m not exactly sure when that will be yet. I’ve also been asked what ages this workshop is suitable for. And I think that if you’re at the milk feeding or early into introducing solid stage or even if you’re still pregnant, this will give you a great foundation. And even if you have older kids up to about 10, 11, 12 that I think this will give you some good ideas for how to approach feeding them. Even though they’re obviously they have a lot more autonomy. So anywhere from like, conception and pregnancy through to those sort of late Primary School sort of ages. So by the time that they are in those early teen years, though, I’d say they probably need to be doing their own work around and choose to be eating if you’ve noticed that they have a difficult relationship with food or with their body. And so something like the To the workbook for teens might work there. And like I said, I’m going to take into consideration some of the challenges you or your family are experiencing with your kids. So that I can try and address specific things that are coming up. So if this all sounds good to you, I’ve put the link in the show notes to sign up. It’s 15 pounds to register. But if that’s not accessible to you right now, then please just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk, and we can get you a comp place. Again, it’s this coming Tuesday, the 28th of June if you’re listening to this episode, when it came out, and it’s at 7pm BST on Zoom, and I really hope to see some of you there.
All right, let’s get to today’s show. Like I said, this is a rerun of one of my favourite episodes that originally aired back in January 2021, to accompany the launch of my second book, How to Just Eat It. And Nikki, who is today’s guest, wrote this incredible essay for the book all about embodiment, and what we can learn about embodiment from cats. If you observe cats, they aren’t ashamed to ask for what they need to rest when their bodies need rest or take pleasure in finding that one patch of sun on the floor and just having a nap. So if you have a copy of How to Just Eat It, you should definitely check that essay out because it’s really great. And if you don’t have a copy yet, why not? I’ve linked to the show notes if you want to grab your own copy. And there’s a podcast episode that accompanies every chapter in that book so that you can listen along and it will help you kind of deepen your intuitive use in practice and help you really integrate these concepts into your life and into your body rather than just thinking about them cognitively. So, like I said, today I am talking to Nicola Haggett. Nicola uses she/her pronouns and is a body liberationist coach and mentor, whose work focuses on supporting folks to move beyond body positivity, to untangle the roots of body shame and anti fat bias, reconnect to their body and intentionally practice their way towards a world where each of us has more safety, compassion and joy in our body. She also mentors and provides peer supervision for coaches, dietitians and therapists who are exploring the edges of their own body acceptance. Nicola is a professionally trained and experienced life coach, certified Body Trust provider, and Open Heart Project meditation instructor. She is also a mid large, fat human and her lived experiences navigating the world as a fat person are an important part of what she brings to her work. In this episode, we talk about how writing our body story can be an act of reclaiming the narrative of our bodies, what exactly embodiment is and how we can find examples of it in our lives. So babies kids kept the difference between embodiment and more performative or hustle self care how embodiment can help us feel connected to our bodies without necessarily loving or feeling positive about them, reclaiming pleasure, appetite and autonomy and more, and finding spaces that feel safe to reconnect with your body. If you haven’t already heard this episode, then I think it will have a lot to offer you. And even if you have already listened, I bet you’ll get something new and different listening to it a second or even a third time around. I know I always get something new each time I listen to it. And as always, please let me know what you think I’m @laurathomasnutrition on Instagram. And I’ll be back with a brand new episode next week. All right, team, here’s Nikki.
Nikki, exploring the relationship we have with food and with our bodies through storytelling is a really powerful tool that we use a lot in clinic at LCIE and something that I know that you use as a body trust provider. And I was just hoping that you could share a little bit about why do you think this is such a valuable exercise for people to do as they’re healing the relationship they have with food and with their body and ultimately with themselves really?
Nicola Haggett
Yeah, sure. I think the idea of body stories comes from lots of different places. But the way that we use it’s the story of our lives and experiences in this body. Because, you know, our body has been with us through everything, right from the beginning, you know, through every heartbreak every skin needs through every celebration. You know, it’s our companion in relationship with it. So sometimes, I think that we can, you know, focus on maybe diet history, or we can focus on body shape and sizes. But a body story is much more than that, it really invites us to zoom out, and to really start to reflect on what are the different things that have impacted my experience of being in my body. You know, looking at the social and cultural conditions, messages we got when we were kids, messages we got from different communities and songs and books that we read and films that we saw. So it’s a really, like this expansive sillimanite. And I think there’s something about that process that can be really validating, it can really help to give voice to things that are often not spoken about it, we don’t read a bio, because you know, body stories that we might see and pop cultural tend to be these hero’s journeys or this before and after, or, you know, like it doesn’t have all this nuance and complexity. And it can really help us to kind of widen our perspective and like start to shift some of the shame and beliefs we’ve kind of internalised about ourselves and about our bodies and about how we feel about them. And helps us to see that Ha, wasn’t always like that. As you know, maybe there was a time when I felt, you know, when I was younger, not always, but often when we were kids, we start to see our we had some really embodied experiences, and we can start to redirect some of that blame at work, if that makes sense.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, so it’s an externalisation, of some of the shame and the cultural programming that we might have internalised throughout our whole lives from yes from diet culture. But what I hear you saying is much more broadly other systems of oppression and marginalisation and I know that they’re in and of themselves, we could we could devote entire podcasts to that. But I’m wondering, for people who are thinking, Oh, this is a bit nebulous. What are some of the messages that maybe you’ve seen internalised frequently in your practice? In your work helping clients?
Nicola Haggett
Yeah, sure. I mean, it obviously varies widely. But some common things, often when I start to do we start to explore this, it can feel a bit nebulous, like you say, let’s use an example of me, because that’s, that’s okay. I grew up in a, quite a Catholic religious family. And that might seem like a weird thing to speak about. But I suddenly realised that there were ideas I heard around being modist are being chaste or what, what, what was a good girl, and you might not obviously think that’s relates to body. But we create an image in our minds. There’s an image painted by society of what they represent. And, and people start to realise that they imagined, you know, that they have to be small or quiet or not unruly, and you know, and there’s connections we make between like, so for example, I mostly work with fat folks, I’m in a fat, I’m fat person myself, we start to make connections that our fatness is somehow unruly, or it’s not tidy, or we’re not modest. And we start to see how, these little subtle messages that we get are not always subtle, but you know, there can be lots of subtle messages impact, our sense of not enoughness. And some other examples are, we might remember a time when we were younger, when we felt like we really could play that sport, you know, there was one of my clients felt really happy playing netball, and really loved that, you know, sort of age of nine and 10. But then sort of got the message that the uniform didn’t look right on her that it was like a little bit too skimpy, and that her body wasn’t the right shape, and that she didn’t fit the kind of sporty ideal and she became more self conscious that then kind of got this message that actually that that times now moved now, that’s not for me, I get to do these things. So it can feel nebulous, but I think that when we start to dip into it, we can reveal quite a lot, actually.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, certainly I’ve heard similar kinds of stories from clients around, and one that comes up quite a lot is around dance as well. And young girls who maybe have to wear, I don’t know, like, leotards or something like that. And then, you know, quite overtly being told to restrict their food intake or that there’s something wrong with their bodies. And then that message can become confounded can’t it by other messages that we receive from diet culture, and from patriarchy, and so on and so forth, about our bodies, that there being something wrong with our bodies.
Nicola Haggett
Yeah. And I think also, there’s this piece of Wonder voice, this kind of shift that we see where we might feel empowered to speak up to put our hand up to say, this is what I believe this is what I want to do. I’m as good as you. Yeah, you know, I’m as good as I’m talking about experinece of a girl here because that’s my experience. But you know, I’m as good as the boys, I can do that. And what you really noticed, and especially the shows and the research that we’ll, I know we’re going to touch on that, that you see this real shift to kind of looking outside of ourselves for the approval for the voice of our peers for the voice of other people. And it’s particularly true for people socialised as girls.
Laura Thomas
I’m wondering, what advice do you have for folks who want to explore their body story? Do you have any ideas of entry points, or places to kind of start looking in or things to start thinking about?
Nicola Haggett
So I think that what’s really important to hold with body storys is it’s an act of reclaiming. It’s an act of taking back control of the narrative, and claiming autonomy. So from that place, we get to choose. And there are lots of different entry points into body stories. I have my favourite ones. But I also know that some people like to start by reading other stories, because they can spark off ideas, you know. So for example, Jess Baker’s land whale is a really great example of a body story that a lot of my clients might resonate with. Other people like to have a book like The body is not an apology by Sonja Renee Taylor, but that can feel like not as gentle an entry poin in for some.
Laura Thomas
Very radical
Nicola Haggett
I love radical people, it takes some a few circling back, you know, a few times circling back before us to really get into that. Something that I really, you know, that’s quite a nice way into it is to some people like to make collages, like on Pinterest, or to draw, you know, I have one client who painted, I really would recommend embodying what feels good initially, it can move on to a timeline kind of an exercise. And I really encourage people not to think of it like this really pressured, we’ve got to get every detail down from start to finish in order, I really encourage people to trust, what am I drawn to, like, you know, maybe I want to explore a certain period that feels like it’s kind of I’m circling back. And I’m a big fan, also of expressive writing, and using that to kind of deepen our stories, you know, and there’s specific ways that we can do that. But yeah, there’s, I think there’s loads of options.
Laura Thomas
Yeah. And I think sometimes we can get kind of overwhelmed by the idea that we, like you were saying that we have to detail every single aspect of our lives, when actually sometimes zooming in on a particular time period or experience that we’ve had, I remember doing it with one client, where she was focusing around relationships that she’d had and kind of noticing patterns and things that had happened in relation to her relationships. I work with a lot of folks who will talk about their pregnancies, that tends to be something that comes up quite a lot for people. So yeah, sometimes kind of narrowing it in and talking about a specific period or experience can be quite a helpful place, if the whole thing is really overwhelming.
Nicola Haggett
I’m gonna think it’s one of these places we can practice trusting ourselves and kind of trusting our process and that we can circle back and you know, we can take our time and be perfect.
Laura Thomas
And I really love that you brought in that sort of creative element as well. Because another thing that I was going to ask about is what if some people are feeling resistance to this work, and if it feels overwhelming, or daunting, or, or like, even it may bring up some trauma or difficult experiences for people. And I think using your creativity, if that feels good. Like I have one client who is a fantastic dancer, and she’s done a lot of work around expressive dance, it’s really, really incredible. Creativity is certainly one access point, if things are feeling quite difficult. I’m wondering what you, what advice you might have for people who are concerned that it might be triggering or bring something difficult, or they’re feeling some resistance to this work?
Nicola Haggett
Yeah, so I like a trauma sensitive approach to my coaching practice, and I know that you folks do as well. So I think that this is really important to sort of reiterate this point around autonomy, and control and choice. And we can lean into that. If we’re nervous about exploring this, you know, how I like to start with clients is if they are concerned to say, you know, what’s the self care plan that you’re going to have for this process, you know, if they are someone that has a trauma history, or if they’re working with a therapist, then you know, I would really encourage them to discuss it with them and you know, that the that they’re gonna start maybe doing exploring this and maybe sort of talk through it and you know, that they have that ability to come back and talk about stuff. I think also just on a really basic level, thinking about how do I want to do this? What would make it feel safe? You know, do I want to, if I’m going to write, am I going to set myself a time? 15 minutes? Would that feel really good in the morning when I’m rested before I go on to something else? Or is this something I want to do in the evening and light a candle and really encourage people to create a nourishing space, I think I would also reassure people that writing this sort of process is not a substitute for therapy. Of course, not everyone has access to therapy and, and writing can be really helpful process. But I think that we can have these parameters around it and trust ourselves, we don’t have to push through, like, if we start writing for 10 minutes, and we’re sort of feeling like, we don’t want to write about a certain thing or explore it because it feels triggering, then we back off, and we don’t we don’t have to go there, I think that we can really trust ourselves to take that control through. And I think that we can expect a certain level of sadness often in the beginning, when we do body story work is normal.
Laura Thomas
For folks who are listening to this in order, they will have come across the episode where I spoke with Fiona Sutherland, about the practice of acceptance, and leaning into discomfort in a very gentle way, not in an aggressive sort of, you know, go hard or go home sort of way. But I think there is, like you say an element of sort of expecting some difficult feelings to come up, and how can we sit with them, often I explain it to clients as if we are always really resistant to them and try and push them down or push them away, they can end up getting stuck in us sometimes. And that actually amplifies those feelings rather than when we lean into them, and breathe into them, it can actually allow them to flow through us a little bit more. And that’s not in service of getting rid of those feelings. But it’s sort of in service of giving them a place to go and being with them, I suppose. But so yeah, go back and listen to that episode with Fiona Sutherland because she articulates it far better than I ever could. And I think it is, it’s that that balance, isn’t it of trusting yourself to go to the edges without pushing yourself off the cliff. In terms of of the trauma.
Nicola Haggett
And that, I think it’s it’s comforting to know that there’s a large body of research that that supports that, when we do these kinds of writing exercises that they’ve shown even you know, that when we write about events, even with emotion, and connect those feelings, that we do see an improvement and in our well being and that it’s you know, it’s something that used obviously, you know, we want to trust ourselves, but we can also there is even if we feel sadness or difficult feelings initially, what I’m trying to say is that in the longer term, it’s been shown that it can really create this release and this new perspective on things and we can almost act like a witness to ourselves in that.
Laura Thomas
I really like that idea. That’s acting as a witness for yourself. That’s really lovely. Um, yeah, I think there is some comfort in knowing that, you know, overall, even though things might be difficult initially, that long term, it may lead to more sort of life satisfaction, and is that that’s not quite the word you used. But so you’ve used the word embodiment a couple of times. And so I’d like to kind of explore that a little bit more. And just for context, in the piece that you wrote for the book, you talk about how we can use these body stories or body journeys to help externalise the messages we’ve received about our bodies, about our bodies not being good enough or worthy enough. And from there, we can begin to make space for being more connected with our bodies through the practice of embodiment. So can you first of all explain what exactly embodiment is? And why it’s an important tool to have in our toolkits.
Nicola Haggett
I think embodiment is one of those words, it’s kind of a buzzword, or it can feel feel like what even is it? You know, and I think there’s something kind of slightly ironic in the kind of mental grappling that we do to get to get our hands on something which is about this mind body connection. So there’s loads of definitions for embodiment there, but when I talk about it, I’m really leaning on a particular framework and a construct for embodiment, which is the developmental theory of embodiment and it’s important to name that because it’s not just about the felt sensation, so embodiment to me, is that feeling of that one feeling at home in our bodies, you know, there’s this lovely James Joyce quote, which I’m sure I’m gonna butcher and I, that it’s Mr. Duffy lived a short distance away from his body. I think a lot of us can relate to that that feeling that we are living from the neck up? Yes, it’s super common, and it’s not our fault. And we can go into that in a minute. But I think embodiment is really not having that. It’s this feeling of deep connection with your body that you’re engaging in the world fully in it and fully with it.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, no, absolutely. It’s, I like to think of it as being sort of grounded down in your body really being fully inside your body. And I’m sure we’ll talk about this a little bit. But I, as you know, Nikki have a five month old baby, and he is just the perfect example of embodiment. He’s at that stage, where he’s like, grabbing his toes and trying to shove them in his mouth and just wiggling all over the place. And he, he’s he, it’s just, it’s been really incredible. Even though I’ve been doing this work for a number of years, it’s been really sort of refreshing and invigorating for me to see him being in his body and being this incredible example of that. And just the way that he like he’s fascinated by it. It’s just, it’s just the most beautiful thing to see. And I think, for anyone out there who’s a parent or caretaker of of a child, that they will immediately recognise that ability that children have to just be in their bodies, free from shame, free from any of the messages that as adults, we have internalised I really love the concept of embodiment. And I’m wondering, you kind of mentioned a particular theory. And do you want to just speak a bit more to that and maybe explain what some of the principles and concepts are within? Yeah.
Nicola Haggett
Sure. Um, I just want to touch on one thing beforehand, if that’s okay, why it’s so important, particularly for fat folks as my people, but also for a lot of us for especially for people, I’m socialised as female, and other marginalised folks, I think the concept of embodiment is really powerful, because it’s not just about our individual perception of our body, or our external appearance, it incorporates a lot of areas that we’ll talk about that actually are one of the reasons that we don’t feel at home in our bodies when we are marginalised or oppressed. So it includes within it, our agency, and our body includes within our sense of safety, and our body. It’s a concept that includes both negative and positive alongside each other. It has that full experience that it’s a continuum, and it recognises that we move in and out of it. So it really gives that space. But I think one of the most important things for me is that this particular construct is really located within what is our social and cultural environment. You know, Dr. Peron talks about embodiment as a set of freedoms. And I think that’s really important to hold on to. And when we explore it, we can we can really get a sense of what can I really enhance and move towards, but also what can I name as external stuff that that’s, that’s,
Laura Thomas
Yeah, we don’t exist in a vacuum. We exist inside a set of systems and cultures. And, like, our social context, I suppose, as well as sort of just our individual
Nicola Haggett
I might think often like, certainly for me, you know, when I was coming to this stuff, I did a lot of body image work. And I’m, I’m a big, there’s a lot of body image work, I think could be really helpful. But I think I often felt like I had to kind of have that before I could feel comfortable in my body, like I had to kind of focus on that. And I actually think that we can start to feel more at home without having to put most of our attention on that sense of kind of body appreciation or body comforting gives us many other entry points.
Laura Thomas
Yeah. And I think that’s a really, really, I mean, this is, this is a bigger conversation still. But there are a lot of folks that I work with have difficulty with the idea of, let’s say, body positivity or body appreciation, even because it feels almost like a point that you have to get to and once you get there, it’s this static thing, whereas actually the, with our bodies, it’s a relationship, isn’t it? And it’s constantly in flux, which I think is what you’re talking about is naming the positives and the negatives. And I think sometimes, body image in sort of inverted commas implies this idea that that we always have to be striving for this positive relationship with our body rather than being with that whole experience in its entirety.
Nicola Haggett
Yeah, I think you and I know that positive body image, you know, it’s not that I think that positive body image doesn’t encompass all of these different aspects and one. So I think that it’s hard for some folks that come from a place of it’s hard to really care for, nourish our cells, and we really don’t feel connected. We don’t feel any sense of ownership or autonomy over our body. So embodiment can become a way to start to reclaim ourselves.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I really like that. So, again, theory, maybe we could think about so yeah, big theory, can we, let’s let’s, let’s bring it down a little bit. With a lot of these concepts we do have, I know, I’m really guilty of this just because of who I am. But I have a tendency sometimes to, and I’m wondering if this is something that you have to work on with yourself as well. But because I come from an academic background, that I have a tendency to overthink these things, and to really think about the big theory, when what we actually need to do is be feeling things a long time.
Nicola Haggett
Totally, I’m a total person that I’m a prime candidate for being in my head by the stuff. And the thing about embodiment is it’s something we have to live,we have to do, we have to take risks with. I think if we back up a little bit to this particular construct I’m talking about so it was developed by Dr. Neeva Paran approach that I was introduced to through my body trust training. And so it’s called the developmental theory of embodiment. And what it really was, was a whole bunch of interviews and research that was done, across actually, this, this piece of research of girls and women across the course of their lives. And from that piece of research, these definitions, these experiences of embodiment evolve. So it’s not something that was kind of placed upon and then, you know, we tried to fit ourselves into this is actually how our experiences of being in our body shows up. So what they find were these five experiences. So the first one, I think, will be super familiar to lots of us, especially for familiar a little bit about body image. So it’s this feeling of body connection and comfort, and a sense of, yeah, a sense of affection and appreciation towards our body. So I mean, I think like, like you said, when you talked about your kid, and I see this in my kids, I give the example the cat, because I’m like, not everybody’s got a small child.
Laura Thomas
Yes, cats are also great.
Nicola Haggett
But like, you know, that their bodies good, you know, our sense that our body is good, we have pride in it, that we know that it’s worthy of respect. And when I talk about this, I picture my, my six year old, you know, and his just prancing about butt naked, looking at ourselves, you know, like, poking his tummy, and, you know, kind of loving himself. But I thought, if somebody’s, you know, poking him, or, you know, prodding, yeah, and with the cat, you know, I think it’s a really nice one. It’s almost ridiculous because we’re not cats. But like the idea of a cat not feeling good about his body,
Laura Thomas
It just wouldn’t stand.
Nicola Haggett
You know, that somehow, you can almost picture you know that the way they look at you, whenever you sort of might talk crossly or like, it’s kind of like, no, don’t talk down to me. So I think that’s that piece that we often see in maybe body appreciation or a lot of aspects. It’s that sense of positive self talk about our body. It’s definitely something that I can recognise as not having positive experiences of, you know, a lot of points of my life. The second dimension is is peace of mind agency,
Laura Thomas
You use that word earlier, just for folks who maybe aren’t familiar with that or think it’s about like, you know, getting a temporary job somewhere. Oh, would you mind just explaining when you’re using the word agency? What you mean by that?
Nicola Haggett
Yeah, sure. So this dimension is called agency and function and functionality, right? So when I’m using that word, we’re talking about a sense that we have choice that we have access, that our voice matters that we are going to be listened to and valued. Yeah, we have autonomy and control and that we have access. The world that we meet, when we go out the door is inviting to us, and we’re able to negotiate it in a way that feels affirming. So it really names this piece around. For a lot of people. That’s not the case
Laura Thomas
For context for anyone who’s reading the book, Sophie Hagen has written a really eye opening piece, I think around the lived experience of being in a fat body and all of the tiny microaggressions that she faces in her daily life. And also some of the not so tiny aggressions that she faces and how a lot of the world is inaccessible to her. And I think that that’s, you know, weight stigma fat phobia is one example of that. And there are lots more, depending on different identities and intersecting identities as well.
Nicola Haggett
Yeah, yeah, I’m sure that piece is gonna be awesome. But yeah, I mean, this is a big part of what embodiment feels like, has been a really healing construct for me, as well, because that’s certainly been my experience of the world. And I think the piece around agency is this piece around voice and feeling. And I think as a fat person, we also are a lot of the time talked about, talked on behalf of told that there are certain rules that apply to us that were kind of not believed. We’re told that were non compliant. All these things that kind of really make us feel like we don’t have a say, you know, yeah,
Laura Thomas
Well, I think that that’s very apparent, in the current moment that we’re in, in terms of the epidemic and, or the pandemic, oh, my god, the pandemic, and the sort of the rhetoric coming out of Downing Street at the moment in terms of, yeah, just a lot of blame on on people,
Nicola Haggett
You know, and I think this is a one where it can feel a little bit helpless, when we sort of look at that. And this is where I think that it can be difficult sometimes to really imagine ourselves. So that’s why having a cat is such a fun example. Not to say that we could suddenly erase everything and become become cats with like full agency, but we can start to think about where can I use my voice to set a boundary? Or to get support to advocate for myself? Where can I start to live in this place of deserving to take up space? You know, and not being kind of pushed around or be made to do stuff, that doesn’t feel good. Because I think that a lot of the time, one of the ways we cope, certainly one of the ways I coped was was really not wanting to be a burden, like really like trying to take up as little space as possible. So I think this this aspect of embodiment really invites us to, to claim a right to have a voice and to take up space,
Laura Thomas
Do you have any, like concrete things that people can do to start, I was gonna say embodying, because I couldn’t think of another word.
Nicola Haggett
I mean, part of it is really naming and saying out loud that my voice matters, My voice matters. And starting to notice where other people are speaking on your behalf, especially something that we noticed, I started to notice when I got into this as a fat person many times that the experts of my experience are not fat, so starting to listen to those voices more finding fat community, and starting to really lean into like, what are my boundaries before I go into situations, you know, I think something that’s coming up a lot now is in small ways we can exercise it is if we see those fat phobic memes that we’re getting sent or people are in our lives are kind of making subtle, subtle comments or judgments around us, we can start to practice like setting some boundaries there. It’s not always easy, like when we go to the doctors to set boundaries and advocate. And that’s probably a whole other topic, what we can start to listen to where we are silencing ourselves and where we’re kind of not speaking up, and we can start to get curious around that.
Laura Thomas
That’s super helpful, just to kind of put that into practical terms for folks. So yeah, thank you. And then there are a couple more principles, right?
Nicola Haggett
So the next one is experience and expression of desires. And this includes appetite. And it also includes our sexual desires. I think it’s one that’s super interesting, because when, when we explore this within the construct, we really look at this place when we move from being aware that we have desires like that we have wants and we might have a crush and that feels like a really dreamy, nice place to a place of being desirable, and really starting to notice like who gets to have their desires celebrated or named or centred. Who got to have seconds at dinner, who got celebrated for having a rowdy appetite and who was told that they were greedy. You know who got to you know, when we talk about desires as well. It’s also who got centred. Do you know who gets to rest, and the subtle messages we get about our needs being set back and that that’s a good thing. You know, it’s really nuanced. But this piece around its experience and expression of desires is a big one. Because embody trust, we talk about pleasure as a measure of freedom. And that’s a big one, because there’s a lot wrapped up in the idea of pleasure and guilt and shame and can’t possibly ask for what I want or what I need. So that’s a huge one. But that’s a big piece of embodiment feeling that we have ownership and agency over responding to our desires in a tuned way. And definitely a big piece of that is appetite.
Laura Thomas
Yeah. And I think for a lot of folks listening to this, leaning into appetite, leaning into the pleasure and the satisfaction and the joy that food can bring, particularly if you’re in a fat body, that bid can perhaps feel quite threatening and daunting for people. I’m just wondering if you have any thoughts on that, or words of wisdom to help? I know, this is a lot of work, right there. But if there’s any, you know, if folks are concerned about leaning into their appetite, maybe not because they don’t trust themselves, but because it might not be safe for them. In some contexts.
Nicola Haggett
Yeah. I mean, from I can talk about my own experience. And what I’ve seen is it can be really slow to shift. For me, the body story piece was really important in this. So starting to explore my experiences in my body and starting to realise that my body and my appetite, were a protective thing, they were a response to try and keep me surviving in this world. Or as in the past, before I really explored it, like it was something to be afraid of, I almost had this idea that I was unsatisfiable, you know, that if I was just allowed to eat what I wanted, and to take pleasure from it haven’t helped, but then I would just do, I just wouldn’t stop, you know, and that’s really reinforced. So I think there’s a piece of this is when we can really reframe that, and start to see that our appetite is not something to be afraid of that it’s a protective thing. And also hold, I’m always about the both on the hand, that we can also hold that we live in a culture that doesn’t really celebrate, you know, like, like, if I was to go I and really enjoy, you know, that sort of mascot of the donut, if I was to call it and enjoy it, and really enjoy it, I would get a different reaction. And I’ve had this experience, I’ve had this experience while eating ice cream with my kids, somebody commenting, you know, it’s a different experience. So I think that we can find places and spaces to play around with this at feel safe. You know, one way that I just invite people to start is like this question. Do you like what you’re eating? That’s like a really basic place, and exploring satisfaction within intuitive eating, and creating a kind of ritual around enjoying something, and really seeing what that brings up. But I think that it’s something that it’s a really slow on raffle playing. And I’m still revealing lots of layers around even when I talk about desire, an expression of desire around my desire for play for rest for you know, all of those things.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for kind of exploring that a little bit more with me, because I think I think it was actually something that you said to me, that kind of made me stop and think about this a little bit more, because there is a strong narrative in the non diet community. And it comes from a place of good intention, as many things do. Where in that kind of ditch the diet, that that discourse can be communicated in a really flippant way sometimes I think, and I’ve had to check myself a lot with this. And I kind of freely admit that I’ve said and done things that were problematic and we’ll continue to do so because I’m always learning and evolving. But I’ve kind of lost my train of thought again here. But I guess I was just grappling with the challenges inherent in that position, the ambivalence perhaps of
Nicola Haggett
I think what you’re naming is the positionality sometimes you know, that, that if we’re saying to someone in a bigger body or a fat person, you know, just eat the cookie or just whatever it can feel like we’re silencing a little bit of how difficult that can be like complex that can be Yeah, I think we’re all learning in public. It can feel really hard. And I think one last piece to name about this piece around desires is consent. One of the early places where we could look at consent is around dieting and around when did we not have consent over our meals being kind of choice taken away from us around, you know, having our potions limited, when we were still hungry? There’s a big piece of that. And then that also entered, intersects with our sexual desires as well and consent, that and all these messages we could talk for ages couldn’t be but you know,
Laura Thomas
Oh, Nikki, Biggie, you know, whatever, I asked my baby before I change his nappy, I’m like that, you know, that’s the level of consent. getting on board with here. But I’ve also, as you know, I’ve been thinking a lot about feeding children and feeding families. And, you know, I see a lot in my practice how people’s agency is taken away from them at a really, really young age around food, by diets, by diet culture. Again, I want to name the system rather than, you know, perhaps parents who, again, have good intentions. But I’ve been thinking a lot about the idea of permission when it comes to children and asking their permission, not just to, I guess it goes both ways to put things on their plate or to take things off of their plate. Like, I think there’s a lot to kind of unravel and unpack within that again, yeah, maybe we can save as a conversation for another day.
Nicola Haggett
It’s a huge one. I think it’s really important. You know, I just want to say that I think that, you know, we’re looking at this topic of embodiment, I won’t go you know, but I think when the whole reason that this work came out was for young people and children. And really, what Dr. Perang calls the cultural abandonment of girls, you know, that this happens around the age eight to eight till 11, that we have this massive shift. So yeah, if we can start really enhancing because we have enhancing the protective factors, you know, for embodiment, if we can start you know, one of those would be permission and consent, we can start that young, I think that that’s when we can be a good thing.
Laura Thomas
I do baby massage with Avery, um, I got this podcast, I have to apologise for everyone who’s like sick of hearing me talk about this. But one thing that I find so wholesome about the baby massage class that we do is that we ask permission and get consent from the babies before we start touching them for massage. And it’s just such a lovely practice. And I think it’s setting up respect for their bodies and respect for other people’s bodies. And that’s just, again, we could dig into this stuff for days, but that’s something that’s valuable to me as a parent to instil in Avery so all right, let’s smash through what’s left.
Nicola Haggett
So attuned self care, and this is one that might seem I think intuitive feeding fits in with this it also fits a little bit and with desire, but you’re attuned self care. So it’s really our ability and access to move through the world while responding to our internal cues and attuned manner so included within that are our needs for rest our needs for our emotional needs to respond to the air to respond to our emotional needs to respond to our relational needs to really take care of ourselves in the way that we need and included within that is also like engagement and meaningful passions and I include within a chin self care valued living so really being able to live in it in a way that feels aligned with our values and having access to that and feeling like we can it’s all part of a chin self care, you know, and this is where I think the cat example and also the kids is a really lovely example because when I look at my kids, especially when they were younger, if they retired, they were tired and they just stopped I don’t know like Patrick my little say mommy, my legs are run out of power. And I think that we become really good at overriding our own needs and responding to my needs and even as I’m sitting here in this chair like we sort of let our like butt cheeks get numb. We just get really good at you know when it goes against her you’ll see this with every as he gets older and I see my kids just even putting up body in positions that feel good and stretching and, and being really connected to, to that and getting food when we need food and communicating when, when we’re angry when we’re cross when we’re frustrated, and our affection. So I think it’s just that ability to have our set our boundaries and to and to really respond to ourselves and a really attuned manner. It’s a really important piece of embodiment. And a really place for often can be a nice place to really start listening, to start connecting attention to when, when I might want to have some rest or, and really couple that with and this can often be tied to that desire, peace feeling like we deserve to do this, can we be really linked. And so really knowing like owning like this idea of pleasure, energy and self care is a measure of our freedom and a measure of our autonomy, and that we get to set boundaries, we get to eat in a tuned manner, we get to move and awareness. We get to listen, and I’m really leaning into that. Yeah.
Laura Thomas
And I think we learn to be disconnected from our needs. You know, diet, culture teaches us disconnection in terms of our undermining our appetite, undermining rest, when you know, because it encouraged us to push and push and push. And yeah, I was laughing. We have the ridiculous week by week, baby book, I don’t know if you had this with your kids. But in the week that we’re in just now, it said, for mom, this week, you need to go really hard with your exercise. Otherwise, you’re never going to you know, get your book. It’s ludicrous. But it’s a perfect example of how diet culture disconnects us from that attuned piece of self care. Because, you know, if I weren’t as far along with this stuff, I might have read that and been like, oh, yeah, I need to like really push through this week. Whereas actually, I’m looking at it. No, I need a big nap this week. That’s what I need. And I think that’s the freedom that is afforded by being more in touch with your needs, and being more attuned with your, what you need for self care.
Nicola Haggett
Yeah, I think this is one of the pieces. You know, when I talked in the piece of wearable in the book about it being really hard to find examples of embodiment. This is one of those ones, you know, we might hear about embodiment, and think that our friend that does yoga or a friend that practice mindfulness is embodied, and in a lot of ways it might be but it’s really hard to find that. And someone who is, is not engaging in wellness culture or health ism, or, you know, we often find people will engage with self care, but it’s kind of like on a slight kind of angle, that it’s, it’s going to somehow help with the weight loss, or it’s going to help with making this more efficient. And I’m able to do more and get more done. So it’s not done in an attuned manner, we’ll have a list of you know, must meditate, must journal, must whatever, drink 8 glasses of water, and it’s not a question.
Laura Thomas
This this, it’s more framed as the self improvement culture, which is not what you’re talking about here, right?
Nicola Haggett
And, uh, but like my number one practice, that I would really invite people to start to do really small, is a daily check in a really short, really just kind of sit and like, put her hand on her heart and breathe and say, Hey, body, hey, hello, what’s here, you know, what’s here. I’m just notice, like, I’m really fired, it’s been a really rough week, or like you said, I really could do it. And even if we can’t get those things, we can start to name them. To notice them, we can start to make little tiny shifts, and say, I’ve closed through really tight, right, and I like, I’m gonna get some stuff that feels a bit more comfy, or a bit softer on me. And it doesn’t have to be about loving, loving, or body or any of these things that can just be these gentle ways of kind of building a bridge back and saying, you know, I’m gonna find a really nice cup of tea and a biscuit and really just have a minute for myself here, you know. So yeah, it’s not about the hustle, self care.
Laura Thomas
I love that. I love that. And that’s a really accessible thing, I think to do is to just have a moment to check in with yourself every day and just kind of even if you can’t immediately go and get those needs met, just acknowledging that they exist and that we’re not trying to push them away or ignore them. I think there’s something really really powerful in that so yeah, thank you. I can imagine a lots of people going and checking in with themselves after listening to this episode.
Nicola Haggett
It sounds small, but then we can start to do it more often. And it becomes, it can feel really hard initially, I think we’re talking about embodiment, and just one more piece that we’ll come to. But it can feel like, that’s a lot. That’s a lot there. I think it’s trying to find you don’t I hope when people read the book that they’ll start to find, like a little way to just notice I’m gonna stretch to that, because I feel a little bit or use it as a pickup mix of little entry points, you know, we could start to explore, connect into ourselves, you know. And the last piece of embodiment is resisting objectification, which can be like a big mouthful. So I don’t talk about I’m sure you’ve talked about in the book in a different places self objectification.
Laura Thomas
We’ve talked on the podcast with Nadia Kradic, about the concept of self objectification. And it’s something that I haven’t written so much about in this book, but did talk a lot about in just eat it, which is the first book so yes. Go buy that one, if you haven’t already. But yeah, I would love to just explain that a little bit, if you wouldn’t mind, the idea of objectification,
Nicola Haggett
Yeah, so when it’s talked about in this construct of experiences of embodiment, we’re talking about both sexual objectification and self objectification. So it’s this experience of viewing ourselves as as an object, or a way that I experienced in a non sexual way as a fat person is starting to kind of really, you know, the BMI to reduce yourself down to number two category. That all word to observe people really treating you like you’re an object, literally. And you start to kind of inhabit that yourself. So let’s say for example, if I was on a bike, which I have been recently, instead of being like, you know, I’m on a bike or my legs feel a bit sore, but tired, I really like this wind going through my hair. And just being in that moment, it’s that experience of kind of catching yourself on the reflection of a window as you cycle past. And then exceeding yourself and going, Oh, my gosh, I look like that. And then not being able to think of anything, but what do I look like when I’m on this bike? What do people think of me? What are they judging? And now I’m saying that in a way, that sounds kind of false, that I want to make clear, it’s not art, it’s not something that we’re like, oh, I’m doing that. So I’m doing something wrong. It’s something that we’re conditioned to do, and completely, where we’re taking it outside of ourselves. You know, when we talked about that piece of Rome, going from having desires to be desirable. That’s a whole other piece of objectification, which theoretically goes a woman’s bodies, as objects, a male gaze for, yeah, to meet certain beauty ideals. And it’s a really big one, pretty much every client that I work with, and it can, it’s really, you know, it goes straight into like, the, how we move our body. And it’s removing our bodies and taking us outside of ourselves, or really connecting ourselves, or the spaces in which we’re engaging in movement, affirming and supportive of that connection in our bodies, or are they a place where we don’t feel safe in our bodies, or hyper vigilant and we feel really observed, taken outside. So this fifth bit is resisting objectification. And I guess my tip for that tip, may sounds kind of flippant.
Laura Thomas
Nikki’s 10 top tips. I have a real issue. I have a real issues when people say, these are my top tips. I’m like, first of all, who asked you. Anyway, let’s get back on track. What I mean, what have you found to be useful around implementing this concept?
Nicola Haggett
First, I want to name what a privilege it is to have access to spaces where we feel safe. And I recognise as a big part of my own experience with this is being able to find places so for example, power, I’m a power lifter, and that’s like a really embodied form of movement for me, but it’s embodied for me because I have found a space which doesn’t have any members in it. Or I weight lift. I’m not with a bunch of other people. And I find somebody who respects my need to say what works for me and not push myself and not take myself to play. So I think if we can find, giving that as an example, so if we can find to what degree it’s available to us places to move our bodies that feel safe. So sometimes at the moment that’s a virtual, something virtual at home, or it could be a walk, I have clients that that find, or have places where they can swim outdoors accessible to them. Not everyone has that. Going for a walk nature, yoga can be an embodied practice, but I really think it depends on the person that is facilitating that. The space in which we’re doing it, and the degree to which we’re invited to respond to our body’s needs. So coming back to the search and peace. So I think if we can find places that feel safe, that have accommodations for us, where we’re invited to really listen to our body, and to go slow, or do a movement differently, if it feels good to us, if we can find a place where we’re not distracted by mirrors all the time, where we’re maybe around people that are really well, not maybe we’re around people that are really affirming and inclusive, so like if it’s positive space, if you’re in fat body, or on your own. So I think what I’m saying here in a really long rambling way is it’s hard to be in your body, and resist objectification if we don’t feel safe. If we don’t feel welcomed, if we don’t feel included. So my top tip, and I’m fair to call this is to really honour your right, to find those spaces. And also to name it, it’s not available to everyone, you know, but I think one of the things that has come out of this whole lockdown situation is there are more virtual spaces popping up where we can start to practice that, you know, like the more fat positive yoga classes or more gentle dance classes, you know, which are really low energy, low, low intensity and slow and yeah.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, that is maybe one silver lining from 2020. Is, is having access to those spaces in a way that wasn’t available to us, perhaps pre lockdown. And yeah, I think having that conversation around self objectification, with clients, I think, as the case with a lot of this stuff is that when we learn about objectification theory and self objectification, our initial reaction can be again to a lot of blame and shame of like, well, that’s so anti feminist of me, how could I have not known about this and, and I just wanted to add that, again, none of this is your fault. These are there are much, much bigger systems of power at play here. And actually, probably one of the most radical things that we can do in this situation is have a tonne of compassion for ourselves. That we have have fallen prey to the systems that are much, much bigger than we are. And once we know that it’s there, that’s when we can start to notice it and name it a lot more and start to externalise the blame and shame. So I just wanted to add that bit in case anyone I’ve definitely had clients who were like, Oh, my God, how did I not get this? How did I not see this before? It’s right in front of my face. And it’s not your fault.
Nicola Haggett
So no. And I think that’s why body story goes with embodiment. Because we have to do that piece of excavating that shame and that blaming that bias so that then we can look at this and go okay, actually, this is not all about individual responsibility. This is not all on me in the goal is not to be fully embodied person all the time. It’s to look at his experiences and say, here’s where this is not my fault. And I really big important part of embodiment is includes activism and pushing back and having a critical stance. And that’s something we haven’t mentioned. But it’s there all the time. So when we can kind of like when we talk about agency, it’s that peace around claiming our voice. And also part of that is, you know, finding communities where we can get that are empowered to push back a little bit in a way that feels you know, right for us. But I think the to go hand in hand, you know, if I was encouraged, taking this to our kids or whatever the young age like activism should be part of that. I’m having a critical stance towards our culture as part of it like we don’t want to just talk that’s why it’s important. We’re not just talking about body image important as it is we’re talking about our experiences of moving through the world and what gets in the way of that.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I mean, again, we could we could go off on one about books and things to share with our kids but we’ve Eliza from LCIE bought Avery anti-racist baby as his first introduction to challenge, set the intention.
Nikki, I just I learn so much from you every time we talk. So just wanted to thank you and say how valuable this conversation and your work more broadly is. So thank you for taking the time. Thank you for writing the piece. And I’m going to link in the show notes to your work and where people can find you. And I might also ask you to share a few more resources on embodiment. So if people do want to dig into this a little bit deeper, because there’s a lot more that we didn’t get to discuss, then they can go and check that out for themselves. So thank you so much.
Nicola Haggett
Yeah, no, thanks for having me. I hope that people got something out of this and can take a little piece away and practice it because that’s what it’s all about.
Laura Thomas
All right, team. That’s this week’s show. If you’d like to learn more about today’s guest, then check out the show notes in your podcast player, or head to laurathomasphd.co.uk for more details or the full transcript from today’s episode. Big thanks to Joeli Kelly for editorial and transcription support. And if you need to get in touch with me then you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk or find me on Instagram @laurathomasnutrition. And if you enjoyed today’s episode, then you can help the show reach more people by subscribing on your podcast player and sharing it with a friend. Alright team. I will catch you next Friday with a brand new episode.
See you there.
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