This week, I’m joined by the Dr. Asher Larmie AKA The Fat Doctor. Asher is a transgender, non-binary GP and fat activist who campaigns for an end to medical weight stigma. I really loved this conversation and am so excited for you all to hear it. We cover things like;
- Why you can’t control your child’s body and why you shouldn’t want to
- Advice on how you can raise kids who are resilient to body shame
- What to say when your doctor wants to weight you and you don’t consent
- How they are working to disrupt weight stigma in the medical profession
Show notes:
- Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter
- Follow Asher on Instagram
- Follow Don’t Salt My Game on Instagram
- Laura’s Website
- Asher’s Website
- Check out Asher’s #NOWEIGH campaign
- Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It
- Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course
- Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns
- Edited by Joeli Kelly
Transcript:
Asher Larmie
Your child’s body will do whatever it wants to do from the age of zero until the age of 18. And probably a bit beyond that. Don’t mess with the process. And as we’ve said before, the more you restrict your child, so the more you intervene and say I’m going to put you on a diet, the worse it will be, it will do nothing for your child in the short term. Because their bodies will be what their bodies will be. You can’t get, making children lose weight is almost impossible. They’re growing. So trying to force it, it’s interesting all these child quote unquote Oh, you know I hate this word. But the obese child obesity programmes, zero success rate because children are growing. If children stop gaining weight, there’s a problem. So it doesn’t work. But what it will do is will set them up for a lifetime of disordered eating, maybe an eating disorder, and they’ll end up being fat adults, right? It’s almost guaranteed. If you leave your child alone, just leave them be, let them do what they’re gonna do. They’ll be fine.
Laura Thomas
Hey, team, welcome back to Don’t Salt My Game where we are having conversations with game changers who are flipping diet culture on it’s head. I’m Laura Thomas. I’m a Registered Nutritionist who specialises in intuitive eating and anti-diet nutrition. And I’m also the author of Just Eat It and How to Just Eat It. Today I’m talking to Dr. Asher Larmie, aka The Fat Doctor. I’m so excited about this episode. But first of all, just a quick ad break.
I just wanted to give a quick plug for my OG CPD course applying intuitive eating and non diet approaches in practice. It’s a great foundational course if you are a nutritionist or dietitian or other health care professional, new to intuitive eating and non diet work. Or if you are a seasoned professional want to update and refresh your skills. The course is super practical with lots of resources and worksheets that you can use in your practice. We cover an introduction to intuitive eating and the non diet approach and weight science. We then go on to explore reliance on hunger and satiety cues, unconditional permission to eat, understanding emotional eating, body food choice congruence, as well as intuitive movement. So covering all of the fundamental principles of intuitive eating. Plus, you can join our monthly live q&a to ask questions about specific case or questions that you have about the content from the course. So the course is approved for six CPD units by the Association for Nutrition. So if that sounds good to you, then head to Learn with LCIE teachable page, which is linked in the show notes to get all the information and to sign up. You get lifetime access to the course and the materials and there are payment plan options available if you need them. Or if you need student or equity pricing that just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk and we’ll hook you up.
Alright team, today I’m talking to Dr. Asher Larmie, aka The Fat Doctor. I’m sure loads of you will already know Asher’s work, but just in case they are a transgender non binary GP and fat activist who is campaigning for an end to medical weight stigma. They are the founder of the No Weigh campaign. And they have over 20 years of medical experience, and have been fat for even longer than that. I really enjoyed this conversation with Asher. And was really blown away by how they speak about raising kids who are really resilient to body shame. And the examples they give about their own kids are really beautiful. They also have some really great things to say about how to refuse weigh-ins at the doctor and what exactly to say, if like me, you were told kind of computer says no. And you were told that you needed to get on the sales, the scales even, it’s really helpful to hear how to navigate this from the perspective of someone who knows the system inside out. So really excited for you to hear this conversation. I feel this about all of the guests that I have on but this one felt really special. And I’d love to know what you thought about it too. So head over to Instagram and follow me @bub.appetit and @dontsaltmygame to keep the conversation going. Alright, team, here’s Asher.
I’m going to ask you a question and I want to know the first thing that comes to mind. Are you ready?
Asher Larmie
I’m ready. Hit me.
Laura Thomas
Okay. What subject did you like best at school?
Asher Larmie
Oh, see, it’s funny. There was the right answer that I’ve been taught to give people and then there’s the real answer. So I’m gonna give you the real answer first, which is history, loved history. Had a really fun history teacher. And we also learned the history of medicine when I was studying history. I found that really exciting as well. I love history. But the correct answer would be chemistry. Because I was taught that I had to love, you used to have chemistry A level to get into medical school. So, you know, I was taught that you were, you know, you had to be into your sciences and history wasn’t a good enough answer. You can’t do anything with history. So you’ve got the real me, the real authentic version versus the fake version.
Laura Thomas
I love it. I love it. And yeah, I know exactly what you mean, that sort of like, reflex of like, Oh, I’m smart. And I studied all these smart people subjects,
Asher Larmie
Right, yeah. Like chemistry is really hard. So like to say you like it just makes you really smart. Whereas actually I hated chemistry so much. And I loved my history classes.
Laura Thomas
Hated chemistry. I can’t tell you.
Asher Larmie
Terrible stuff.
Laura Thomas
Okay, most refreshing beverage?
Asher Larmie
Okay, okay, really sad, but water. I always only drink water. I genuinely don’t drink anything else. And if I really want to treat myself, I’ll go for sparkling water. And a friend of mine just gave me like a Sodastream. Yeah. Which was a proper treat for me, because I really liked my sparkling water. But isn’t that boring? Was I supposed to pick an alcoholic one?
Laura Thomas
No, actually, nobody, I don’t think anyone so far has gone for booze. But I was actually, I’m just gonna reframe it as, classic like, water it’s classic. Bubbles are a fun twist. Who doesn’t like bubbles?
Asher Larmie
Right? I mean, I feel like that’s a real treat. But I just, I don’t know, I’ve never really been into like sweet drinks. I’ve never. It’s the one thing that just, I think I drank like Coke when I was really young. And I didn’t like the taste of it. And then I just went off. I just didn’t drink fizzy drinks. And then I just never have.
Laura Thomas
Okay, I want to, I want to, I just I’m going to, because I’ve just switched into nutritionist mode here. How much of that do you think is a, is a response to diet culture messaging?
Asher Larmie
You know what, genuinely, this isn’t. I think everything else would be but this genuinely for me isn’t because I remember really not like, genuinely not liking it. And actually, I suppose in a way I was praised for it. Because I remember my sister loved Coke. And it was only, it was a treat, it wasn’t all the time. And you know, I grew up in a home where we were always restricted in some way or whether it was being restricted from sugar or generally just being restricted from food. My sister and I were talking about the other day, how much food my children eat, and how I just never was allowed to eat that much. So I was always hungry. And I can remember growing up hungry. But the one thing that I really didn’t want even if I went to a party if you offered me a fizzy drink Coke, 7 Up, any of those things, I’d be like, I don’t like them. I’ve just I’ve never developed a taste for them. But it was, but was the only thing I think my mother was genuinely proud of me for is that I would actually be the child that chose to drink water. Like when asked what do you want? And so yes, I suppose maybe subconsciously, there’s a diet culture thing going on there. But you’d really have to pay me to drink something fizzy, you’d have to physically pay me to do it. Otherwise, I won’t do it. Because I don’t like it.
Laura Thomas
That’s interesting. And also some foreshadowing for what we’re going to talk about. Okay, tacos or pizza?
Asher Larmie
Oh come on now. How do you expect me to answer that question? Oh, that would have to be depending on what day I mean, I really love tacos, especially like. I remember the first time I had like proper ones. Oh gosh at a push, probably tacos, probably tacos at a push. But you know, either one of those is gonna go down well.
Laura Thomas
I mean, it’s really, it’s not. It’s like, it’s a really unfair question.
Asher Larmie
It is an unfair question. Give me something easier.
Laura Thomas
Okay, if you could, I’m not sure if this is easier but, if you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be?
Asher Larmie
Oh, I know the answer to this question because I’m planning to move. I want to move to Scotland.
Laura Thomas
Oh, which part?
Asher Larmie
So we’re going to be hopefully moving just outside of Edinburgh. This is like breaking news. By the way. You’re the first person to know this. Not I mean, publicly, I have told my husband and stuff like that. Yeah, we we love it there. It’s a really lovely place. It’s a beautiful country, people are really lovely, genuinely feel like there’s a lot of really positive things about it and also think they’re making huge moves when it comes to weight stigma. Yeah, whilst other people just barely talking about it. I feel like Scotland is really putting their money where their mouth is. So I looking forward to living there. So that’s my realistic answer, obviously, because there’s no language barrier and stuff. I mean, obviously, I don’t think I’d say no to the Bahamas, but realistically,
Laura Thomas
Scotland, Scotland, okay, so as as a Scottish person. I feel it is my duty to tell you that anywhere south of Edinburgh is not Scotland.
Asher Larmie
Okay. Don’t worry. I am moving north of school and Edinburgh. I mean, I will be thinking about Kin we’re thinking about the Perth and Kinross-shire as a, so just because of all the different locations of the school that one of my kids is going to, but it’ll be somewhere in the centre. I don’t think we’re going to be up to, the highlands are the most peaceful parts of Scotland I think. But harder I think to sort of commute when you, I think, I’ve got teenagers and they don’t want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere. They need to,
Laura Thomas
They need to be close to Edinburgh.
Asher Larmie
Close to Edinburgh, or Glasgow, It’s somewhere in between, but definitely not south of Edinburgh. I’m moving out of England. Yes, I’m moving out of England for a reason. Like there’s, I’m leaving, sorry English people, but I’m leaving. For good reason.
Laura Thomas
Sorry, sorry Scottish English people that I’ve just offended. But if you’re from up north, nowhere, like if you’re around Edinburgh anywhere south of Edinburgh, you’re like, that’s not Scotland anymore, guys, come on, come on, that’s England. Do you have a hidden talent?
Asher Larmie
I can play guitar. And I used to write songs. Does that count?
Laura Thomas
Yeah, absolutely. Everyone’s like very coy about their like, musical abilities or singing or whatever it is, like just Yeah. Own it. Do you have a favourite flavour of cake?
Asher Larmie
Why are you making me pick them? I can tell you all the different cakes I like. If I had to pick I think probably, I really love like a lemon, like a lemon drizzle. I love the tart stuff. So if I had to pick, but you know, cake is cake, you put the cake in front of me. I’ll eat it. There’s no, there’s no cake I will not eat. And I’ve tried some weird and wonderful ones. So, but lemon, if I had to pick I’d go for really like tart lemon drizzle.
Laura Thomas
I’m with you. I’m with you on that one. It seems to be a popular pick as well. Like a lot of people have said that. Favourite kitchen utensil?
Asher Larmie
Honestly, I’ve got a NutriBullet and this is not again, this is not a diet culture thing, I put everything in my NutriBullet like,
Laura Thomas
I like how you’re already pre-empting that I’m gonna call you out.
Asher Larmie
But like, you know, I used to have blender then I bought a NutriBullet, and I was like it can blend to everything. And I make a lot of African dishes, I make a lot of like West African dishes, I make a lot of different dishes where you like need to blend like cans of tomatoes and stuff, like you need like blended like almost like passata and so I will literally just whip it out and stick a can of tomatoes in it and blitz it and it’s done. And it takes so much work out of what I have to do that actually I spent my life using it and I mix everything in there, milkshakes, you know, whatever goes in that thing.
Laura Thomas
I mean, I’m, I’m not like, I’m a, I’ve been a Vitamix girl my whole life. I get you like once you’ve had a really good high speed blender.
Asher Larmie
It changes everything
Laura Thomas
But anyway, yeah, no, mine is, I’ve had mine for a long time now. I think I’m gonna have to replace like the jug. But
Asher Larmie
yes, me too
Laura Thomas
It’s worth the investment, I think. Anyway, okay. So as per usual, never really a quick fire round. But I just like, I like, I’ve kind of kept the questions the same so far this season. But it’s so like, interesting to me to hear different people’s or Yeah, responses to the same questions and how they end up being so different. But okay, let’s, let’s ask some real questions. Asher like, I don’t even know where to start with you.
Asher Larmie
That is a common thing, actually, I don’t know why that is.
Laura Thomas
It’s just, you know, your essence. I feel like, I went on maternity leave and kind of checked out of social media. And then when I came back, you were absolutely everywhere. And you had this huge following. And I was like, Who is this person? Where did they come from? What’s their deal? So who are you? How did you come out of obscurity to be all over social media? And like, yeah, what brought you there?
Asher Larmie
So who am I? I am a 41 about to turn 42 year old non-binary person who has a very, very kind of run of the mill story. I think nothing unique about my story. I grew up as I said, alluded to earlier, in a house where I was on some form of restriction from the beginning. There was a lot of weight shaming, a lot of weight sort of fat body shaming that went on in my family, not just with me, but literally with everybody. I was a regular size kid who saw themselves as fat from a very young age, like I was called fat and my family focused a lot on weight and weight gain and talking about everybody else’s weight. And you know, Princess Diana’s weight. I mean, it was just, it was constant theme in the background. So weight was always on the brain. Everyone I knew was on a diet. I felt like I was on a diet when I was a kid. By the time I turned like 17, 18, you know, diet culture had overtaken my life. And as I say, pretty much everybody I know has a similar story. So it’s not unusual,
Laura Thomas
But it’s just, it’s not, it’s also not something to gloss over because in everything that you described there, there’s a lot of pain. There’s a lot of shame. There’s a lot, I mean, I’m speaking for you, right, but just my experience, working with folks and hearing their story that there’s yes, it’s a similar trajectory, maybe that to other people, but it just speaks to how deeply deeply entrenched anti fatness is and how strong diet culture is, how pervasive it is. And that doesn’t make it any ,just because your story is similar to other people doesn’t make it any less, yeah, painful.
Asher Larmie
It defined who I was. I think, you know, it’s interesting, you know, I went in, that time I, you know, I started medical school, like I made friends. Interestingly, even though I was dead set against it, I got married and had kids, like that was not supposed to be the trajectory of my life at all, was the opposite of what I wanted. But that’s how I ended up, you know, I owned a home, I had a career and there was lots of stuff going on in my life, but my weight and how I felt about my weight, defined who I was from, from, from when I was little, and I suppose, you know, I became fat, I don’t know that I was when I was a child, I was probably an average child. But certainly in my late teens, late teens, early 20s, I became fat. And, and then I did the whole, you know, I went on extreme diets, and they became more and more extreme, and I lost a large amount of weight, and then I slowly put back on and every kind of two, three years, I would do something drastic, and it would it would go up and down. And along with it went my mood, you know, I am not blaming my weight, and my, my, my issues with my body, body size or my body issues solely for this, but I went through a period of depression, my first real period of depression when I was about 14. And I self harmed, I attempted suicide twice before the age of 18. I wasn’t a particularly happy child, but there was lots of stuff going in, that I won’t, going on in the background that contributed to that as well. So by the time I was in my 20s, you know, depression was something that was happening in my life. I never named it. I never, I never thought of myself as someone with depression until I turned 35. But looking back, I had depression. And so you know, 20s and 30s. I have three children in that time. And of course, my weight changed with that as well. And I had gestational diabetes with my third child. And that was extremely traumatic for me because I went through a lot of weight stigma at the hospital. And it all coincided, unfortunately, my daughter was born about four weeks after my mum was diagnosed with Well, no, two weeks after my mum was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. So I was heavily pregnant trying to get my mum’s diagnosis before I gave birth, which is an awful thing to say. But I knew what was coming. I had seen, I had foreseen it, I was, had been around the block enough times. So I was just like, we need to get this sorted out before I have the baby because I won’t be able to help her so much after and my mum died, literally three months, three months after my daughter was born. So it was quite, it was a tough time. And then after that, again, went on, I’m sure I did two more diets in between then. We’ll fast forward to 2020. COVID happened as we are all aware, and I was a general practitioner, we were in the thick of it. I know a lot of people think that we shut down, we didn’t. We were seeing lots of COVID patients, a lot of COVID patients were dying at home, or in care homes, nursing homes, and we look after them all. So we were in the thick of it, seeing patients, you know, not sure what was happening. Nobody knew if PP was working, we didn’t often have enough PPE, it was a scary time. And we were being told that if you were fat, you’re far more likely to die from COVID. That came out right at the beginning. And I remember thinking, you know, I can handle dying from COVID. But I can’t handle dying as a fat person from COVID. Like, I would think, I would stay awake at night not thinking about dying. But thinking about what people would say about me after I died, you know, they brought it on themselves. It’s you know, you know, of course that was going to happen, look how fat they were. And so that plagued me, you know, Fat GP Dies of COVID, the headlines wrote themselves. So that plagued me and I was just like, I need to do something about this. So I weighed myself. I went on another diet, I lost quite a bit of weight, really, I mean, I really restricted. I went on a very, very restrictive diet and lost a lot of weight and started writing, believe it or not, I started writing a weight loss blog, and I joke about it but my first ever post on my weight loss blog was how to lose weight the hard way. And I did like a 10 point mission. It’s really embarrassing still available to read if people want to have a laugh.
Laura Thomas
I’m going to look it up after.
Asher Larmie
Just for a laugh, it’s like, it’s just so, it’s awful. I cringe when I read it, but it’s worth noting. So that was that was May 2020. And so I did it and then I became depressed again, which you know, it’s just, those two go hand in hand for me diet for a few months become depressed. And that’s where I thought to myself, This is enough. I can’t keep doing this. I’m 40 now. How can I keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result? There must be more to this. And I had, I had thought about anti diet for a while, like the idea crossed my mind like I’m never gonna diet again. But for me that felt like a failure. It felt like giving up. But then I started to explore anti diet stuff. And some people came around me, really great people came into my life, Jennette being one of them. And I kind of got into anti diet, which is probably where you kind of saw me or maybe a little bit after that I got into sort of the anti diet thing started reading ,started researching, learnt the term weight stigma, hadn’t heard it before, started reading a little bit more about weight stigma, and just thought, well, this is obviously impacting the medical world. And we know, it’s everywhere in medicine, and then began to see it literally as a fat person, but also as a doctor. And ironically, I had named myself already, my blog was about the fact, I’ld called myself the fat doctor before I became the fat doctor. Because to me being fat and being a doctor are the two things that have defined, significantly define my life. And the two areas in which I feel like I, I sort of almost want to join them together, or they are joined together to do the work that I want to do. And by work that I want to do is I’m really passionate about really challenging, and ideally destroying weight stigma in medicine, specifically in medicine, because that’s where my field of expertise is. So that’s, that’s kind of a very, very short whistlestop tour of my house. Who am I and why am I here?
Laura Thomas
Yeah, there’s, it’s such a an interesting trajectory. And I think what’s terrifying to me is that as a doctor, who had been practising medicine for a while, by the time that they came across the term, had no idea what weight stigma was. That’s so frightening.
Asher Larmie
I mean, you say that, but I mean, do a straw poll, there’ll be what 2% of doctors will know what it means less than that? It’s not something that people know. It’s quite shocking. And it’s quite radical actually. People do think that I am radical by stating some of the most basic and simple things like, you know, perhaps you shouldn’t just assume that that’s due to a person’s weight, maybe you should take a history first. And people think that’s radical. That’s, that’s extremism. Which is crazy, because of course, it’s just basic, basic medicine 101. But that’s how far gone we are.
Laura Thomas
It just, again, highlights, like how much work there is to do in that, in that space. Yeah, I was gonna go down a weird tangent, but I’m not gonna go there. What I’m really interested in, in talking to you about is how, I mean, there are lots of things I could go down many, many different rabbit holes. But I’m really interested to hear how your evolution towards learning about anti diet, health at every size, and intuitive eating, weight stigma, all of all of this kind of consortium of things, has impacted and shown up in how you feed your kids and just in your parenting more generally.
Asher Larmie
So that’s, it’s a really interesting question. And I’ve really been thinking about this. I learned about anti diet, culture, long before I ever learned about anti diet culture. And here’s why. My theory of parenting, I love my mother, I made peace with my mum, before she died, we had a very tumultuous relationship. She wasn’t the abuser, I have to say, although she could be abusive, my father was the abuser. I had a very abusive father who abused her and abused us. She had many flaws and I love her to bits, and I know why she did a lot of the things that she did, but when I parent my children, essentially, I think to myself, What would mum and dad do, and then do the opposite. And that’s, that is my theory of parenting. It’s how I’ve got as far as I have. So mum used to restrict us a lot. And I decided when the kids were quite young, that I was going to do the opposite, because I felt that, you know, this, this fit with my theory of parenting. So I taught my children anti diet culture, and it took me 15 years to learn it for myself, but my children have always had open access to all food. So there is, you know, however much they wanted to eat, you know, if they asked for extra, or asked for seconds, they got it. I let them pick to a degree, you know, like they also have to live with what gets put in front of them. But you know, they have choices. They learned to feed themselves quite young. So I encouraged them to sort of prepare their own breakfast and, and learn to pick what they wanted and to think about the food that they’re eating. What appeals to them. So you know, I noticed that my children will all do different things now. They’ll pick different breakfast, very different breakfasts but you can just tell which which things they like and which things they don’t. Like one of them’s really militant about eating his portions of fruit and veg and likes to get it done as early in the day as possible.
Laura Thomas
Do you mean like his five a day or whatever?
Asher Larmie
So it’s like I must eat five. So I will try and eat 3 at breakfast and then 2 at lunchtime, and then I don’t have to eat anything at dinner, which is really funny.
Laura Thomas
That’s so funny, and I’m guessing that’s something he picked up at school?
Asher Larmie
It’s no doubt something he picked up at school. He’s got a really, he’s sort of got quite firm ideas about nutrition. But they are for the most part, good ish ideas, so I haven’t interfered too much. There’s a bit, it’s, you know, it’s a fine line, you have to walk between autonomy and, and, and parenting them. But so I’ve never really, I’ve never had any rules, there was no such thing as, quote unquote, junk food in my home, that food was always accessible. Because one thing for me is I remember, my mom used to have like this little box of chocolate, that she would put on a really high shelf. And occasionally, she would present us with some, it wasn’t necessarily when we were good, but you know, you never knew what you had to do to earn it, but you definitely had to earn it. And so I kept chocolate right at the bottom shelf, so that my children could always have reached for it. And, you know, if they wanted, you know, an ice lolly and then they wanted a second ice lolly, I never stopped them, I never stopped them from eating anything or drinking anything. What’s very interesting is that they’re the most, quite boring now. Like, if you were to, you know, Easter is your classic, you know, I don’t bother with Easter eggs anymore, because I know that they won’t eat them, because they just, you know, they eat chocolate whenever they want. And so they just don’t want it, I’ve got one that loves a cream egg. But that’s it, you know, they don’t, they don’t care. So I don’t have to go out and buy easter eggs. Because my children know where the chocolate is and often the chocolate just sits there. And I didn’t want it to go to waste. But they’ve got no real vested interest in, in eating certain things, because they know that they can always have it. And as a result, my children are real intuitive eaters. For the most part. Of course, school massively screwed that up, because school taught them the exact opposite of what I was trying to teach them. In the last couple of years, of course, now that I understand the origins of anti fatness, now that I understand the, you know, the wellness industrial complex, now that I understand how much money exists in diet culture, and my children are all three very much into sort of social justice and always have been. So now that I’ve been explaining that to them, I think that that has reframed a lot of their understanding of food. But this is more as you know, my kids are teenagers, this is more as sort of older, young adults, one would say actually. So yeah, that’s sort of, I suppose I don’t have a sort of like, I was like this and then I changed to this. I was always doing it the way that I wanted to do it. And I would if I could go back in time, knowing what I know, now, I wouldn’t have done anything differently.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I, it’s interesting to hear you talk about this, and maybe, maybe I should have done some background research, before we had this conversation. But I’m wondering if seeing your kids eat intuitively. And, and seeing them kind of be able to, I don’t like the word moderate, but, you know, be able to kind of figure out what balance looks like for them and their own terms. How, like, and also the fact that you provided unrestricted access to certain foods, when that wasn’t what was available for you. Did any of this like, bump up against your own relationship with food? Or did it actually make things easier for your relationship with food? Do you know what I mean?
Asher Larmie
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, and it didn’t, it didn’t help me at all. I look back, you know, my biggest regret, of course, is that I believe that children are much better at role modelling than they are at listening. So you can teach child something 1000 times. But if they watch you doing something else, they will pick up on that, right. So it’s a, it’s my deepest regret is that I would feed them one thing and me another, quite often I was dieting when my children were sort of eating normally, so they would watch me weighing spinach or raspberries, but they would have unrestricted access to whatever I’d cooked for them, separate food quite often. So in my mind, it was, you know, like, separate rules. And I suppose that that’s actually very harmful for them because they saw someone who obviously didn’t, you know, didn’t like their body. They knew that I didn’t like my body that I was ashamed of my body. And they knew that I was always on a quote, unquote, diet. And so what they saw is, of course, that’s the other thing is you have to look at the shape of my children, and my oldest child is now 16. And he’s just like his father. Stick with arms and legs. He’s really really tall and thin. You know, that kind of like awkward gangly, teenage phase. That’s where he’s at at the moment. He’s like six foot tall and like, you know, all limbs are not, you know, there’s there’s no fat on him at all. And they were, they were quite slim children, quite slim children almost to the point of sometimes me worrying about them because at one point were quite underweight and there was worries about their weight being under rather than over. So that’s the other thing, of course, is what they looked like. So I justified it in my head as well, they can do whatever they want, because look at them, obviously, there’s no problem. But I’m, you know, I look like this. And my husband until recently was also quite trim. So, you know, we, they ate their food, and I ate my food. There was also you have to take into consideration my deeply entrenched fear of diabetes, I was terrified of diabetes. I’ve now developed it in the last few months, I was diagnosed two months ago, something like that. And my worst, I suppose fears came to pass. But for 15 years, I’ve been trying to avoid diabetes, by probably doing the worst thing I could possibly do, which is going on intentional weight loss diets and yo yo-ing. But anyway, that’s too late to regret that now. So in a way, I justified it by sort of separating it completely, mine versus theirs. But it was actually really painful for me to constantly sit down at the table and be looking at my miserable plate, small plate with like, nothing on it and watching them eat like really yummy food and me really wanting to and then occasionally, like giving into the temptation and after they’d all gone sort of, you know, not bingeing because I don’t think I ever really binged but sneaking a little portion of food, because, you know, I really wanted it. So not healthy.
Laura Thomas
Yeah because it was forbidden. Yeah, yeah, it was up on that proverbial pedestal. And, yeah, of course, it’s much more, as you said, tempting when it’s when it’s restricted. Yeah. So then. So your kids have obviously witnessed this, I was going to say transformation, it is in a way. And I’m, because your kids are that bit older, they understand a lot more. And like you said, they’re invested in social justice issues. And I’m just curious to hear how you’re navigating these conversations with your kids. What does that sound like in your family?
Asher Larmie
Yeah. So up until two years ago, I would say probably my children had some embarrassment. They were they were probably a bit ashamed of me. And I think that a lot of that shame, actually, well, some of that shame came from me, they, they sensed my shame, and they carried it with them. Some of it probably came from school. And you know, when you go to school, right, from a very young age, you’re being indoctrinated into the idea that fat is bad. So you’re going to school and you know, fat is bad. fat is bad.
Laura Thomas
We’ve even had it at nursery. My toddler was about 18 months old at the, at the time, where I got invited to a Zoom meeting at the nursery about childhood obesity.
Asher Larmie
Oh my god.
Laura Thomas
What the actual fuck
Asher Larmie
That’s scary actually, at 18 months, that’s so terrifying.
Laura Thomas
Anyway sorry to cut you off, it’s just, it’s so it’s so pervasive, it’s really frightening. And it was interesting to see some other parents responding by like being like, Oh, yes, this is so important. We need to discuss this. And I’m like, You need to back the fuck off. I did not have the capacity at the time to tackle it. But yeah, trust me next time it happens, I’m going in.
Asher Larmie
Yeah. And that’s, that’s the thing, isn’t it? I never have and to be honest, I still struggle a little bit.
Laura Thomas
You mean, the advocacy piece? Or?
Asher Larmie
Yeah, with the advocacy in school, but I think it’s more now because actually, I think if I went into school, my kids would kill me.
Laura Thomas
Die of embarrassment.
Asher Larmie
That’s too much, shut up. So the conversations vary depending on the child. So my youngest is now nine. So she was seven when I started getting into this, and I obviously started eating. So that’s probably the first thing they noticed. They were like aren’t you going to have your special food. I was like no. And then I started explaining why and I started talking a little bit so we started having conversations about anti you know, anti diet culture and, and I started bringing it up at the table and I started just, you know, as we we’ve always had a family meal together so often around dinner time when we were all eating together, I would bring up the conversation. And great, my youngest got it straight away. She really struggles with describing me as fat. So to begin with, she was like, she’d call me fat and then she be like “uhh” and then I’d explained to her that actually, it’s okay to call me fat. And actually, fat’s not a bad word and we’ve talked about that a lot. So now she really does embrace the fact that I am a fat person. And like I’ve got, you know, I’ve always carried my weight around the middle. So she quite likes my tummy. And she’ll, like, you know, she’ll kind of play with it and she’ll like playing bongos on my tummy sometimes. She’s kind of learned that, and of course, I’ve always been speaking to my children about how bodies are different. And, you know, I’ve always tackled racism, ableism, you know, transphobia, homophobia, since they were little since they were tiny. We talked about what different families looked like. And, you know, my children are mixed race. So, you know, obviously race came up a lot when we’re younger. So we’ve had these conversations just never about bodies before. So we’ve bought bodies into the conversation and it was really easy for the youngest. And my middle child is perhaps the sweetest human being on the planet. I mean, he’s just absolutely the loveliest person so he has no problems.
Laura Thomas
I hope your other kids don’t hear this.
Asher Larmie
No, he’s, he’s the middle child. They know. They’re both vicious and quite proud of it. He’s like, he’s middle, classic middle child peacekeeper, you know, sweet, he gets on both, well with both of them. But they, the other two don’t get on with each other. Like, he’s like a mediator. It’s like your classic middle child. But he is perhaps one of the most accepting. He’s always been the one to sort of champion accepting people and accepting bullies and stuff. So for him, I think it was just like, Yeah, well, I already accepted bodies long before you jokers did. And the oldest, I think, sort of, he’s sort of been on the longest journey with me, he struggled a bit at first because of the fact that this was so against everything that he’d been taught. And he was embarrassed, I think to begin with if he was honest. But what’s really interesting is the more I’ve talked to him about the social justice side, where more I’ve explained to him where antifatness comes from, why it’s such a problem, why this is a social justice issue. He’s really come on board with it. And for him, that’s the thing that’s kind of got him and that’s the thing that’s got him in so now he’s really fascinated to learn about, in particular anti fatness, so less about diet culture, because I think he’s never really been invested in diet culture anyway, but more about the unfairness of how fat people are treated and how they are a group of people that are experiencing oppression and prejudice. And as a, as a black boy, you know, man, now, I think that he can, that resonates with him anyway. So yeah.
Laura Thomas
Interesting, as well that kids have this, I think, inherent sense of equality and justice. And we kind of not literally, but metaphorically beat that out of them with narratives around body so you know fatness as being morally inferior, for example, being one of them. And like you were saying, the, the kids learn that from before they even go to school. But that’s not their, their default nature. So yeah, it’s, it’s wild.
Asher Larmie
It’s actually really subtle. I remember reading a few studies about how, how children even as young as nursery age, pick up the way that their peers are treated, and how, how teachers will often favour conventionally attractive children. And that’s not just about weights, but it’s also about the symmetrical faces and hair colour, eye colour, all sorts of
Laura Thomas
skin colour,
Asher Larmie
Skin colour obviously. And so they learn, children learned by watching how adults treat certain individuals, and then they want to be like that individual. And I remember reading quite a long time ago was this expression, that what is beautiful is good. And the idea that beauty and goodness, somehow are intrinsically linked together from a very young age. And so as you say, children are all about what’s good, right? Actually, kids are really interested in being good, they want to be good. And so they learned that to be good, you must be beautiful. And it’s really, really sad because you learn that so young, and all of the kids who don’t experience that kind of being sort of loved and adored for being beautiful can grow up with A, a whole heap of problems, but B, probably grow up trying to change it. And even though, you know, I wasn’t just, you know, I wasn’t particularly a fat kid, as I keep saying, but I did look different. Like I looked like a foreign kid. And I was. I mean, my parents were immigrants. So my parents didn’t speak English as a first language. And I always had like, sort of dark features, more like facial hair, like I just, I didn’t look like your typical sort of all my peers, I stood out, you could sort of spot me and be like, that kid doesn’t look like they’re from around here. And so I think that also, you know, I felt othered, othered is a good word, and perhaps not as beautiful. And of course, then you’ve got your mum in your ear kind of going well, unless you’re skinny your not beautiful anyway. So my mum used to say things like, some of my favourites, you’re very smart, but you’ll never be beautiful, you’ll never be a beauty queen, that was what she used to say. And she used to say, I just don’t want you getting your hopes up, you know, you’re not exactly going to, you’re not going to be you’re not the next supermodel. So she would always, I suppose manage my, she was trying to manage my expectations of how people would see me. But in doing so she like completely eradicated all my sort of self worth. And yeah, I just disliked the way that I looked.
Laura Thomas
Well, and what she was sort of saying there as well is teaching you that what is valuable and important in the world is physical appearance. And beauty. Which is true.
Asher Larmie
Yes. Yeah.
Laura Thomas
But that’s fucked up. And this is, this is kind of a conversation that we started having, before we started recording, which is, you know, something that I’ve been thinking about a lot lately, and it’s come up on, on conversations, or in conversations on Instagram, is this idea that, you know, we can so desperately want to disrupt the intergenerational transmission of body hatred and low body esteem and disordered eating and dieting and eating disorders and all of those things. And at the same time, be grappling with what it would mean, as a parent, to let your child grow into their body if that was a fat body, and all the discrimination and prejudice and anti fatness that they would experience and that’s not even considering layering on any other marginalised identities that they may have. It’s kind of, I don’t really have a question specifically, I would just like to hear your thoughts on that. And if that something you’ve kind of worked through for yourself as a fat person, as a fat parent?
Asher Larmie
Yeah, in a way, I’ve been fortunate, because I’m raising three black kids in a very, very white neighbourhood, where they stick out, and they always have, and they were the only black child in their class. You know, I grew up in Hackney and in North London, and, you know, I lived in Hackney, before I moved up to where I live now. And we it was, we were in this kind of wonderful melting pot of, of identities. And just, you know, you literally, you would hear like 100 different languages on the street. And it’s fun like that, and then I moved to this, really, really kind of, sort of middle class affluent, very white town. And these kids just just they stood out in their hair was different, their skin was obviously different. And so I’m quite lucky that we’ve been having these conversations from the beginning. And so we’ve had to tackle that. And there’s a, you know, it wasn’t even a it’s not something that I could control. And that’s, I suppose, I mean, often people will say, Oh, well, that’s the difference, isn’t it, because you can control your kids being fat, and you can’t control the fact that they’re black, which I completely disagree with. Putting that to one side, you have to have these conversations with children from really young age, and yet, it’s really hard because you do know that they’re going to face a lot of crap in school, I mean, then you can’t shield them from all of it. But having really open conversations with your children from a very young age, and them knowing I think that they have a safe loving home with parents who think they are the most beautiful, fantastic, you know, like I said, my mother was very stingy with her praise. I went all out, like my kids were, you are the most beautiful human beings on the planet and you know, and we would talk about it in you know, in very real terms, so it wasn’t like just sort of calling them princesses or anything like that, you know, we we would talk about what beauty meant and what you know, my youngest used to really struggled with her hair because she wants to have long straight hair like everyone else and she does not have long straight hair as you can imagine. And so, we would spend hours reading books, playing with her hair, trying different hair styles. Like really exploring all the multitude of issues that she faced as a black girl with black hair, or mixed race hair in a predominantly white school. And a white, I wouldn’t define myself as her mother anymore. But but, you know, like, I took on the maternal role I was, I was, I was definitely the hairdresser. Let’s put it that way. So it was like it was a really nuanced conversation that we had to have on a continual basis. And we’ve got to the stage now, where she has just turned nine years old. And she came into my room this weekend, and said to me, I want it all off, chop off my hair. And she had like, I’d put her hair in extensions, so I box braided and her hair was down to her sort of mid back. I was like, why, and she’s like I’m done with it, I’m fed up with it, I want it all off. And we talked about how she wanted it. She wanted it really short. And she had mentioned it a few times that she wanted short hair, but I was like, dude, like short shorts, like short, shorter than her brothers. She was like, I want it short, short, short, like yours, but shorter. And as a as a parent, I was like, she’s gonna get teased for this haircut. I know, she’s gonna get teased for this haircut like she she can pull it off, she’ll look gorgeous. But she’s gonna get shit from this haircut. And then she said to me, but this is this is my hair, and it’s my life. And you taught me, she knows the word autonomy so she was like, my body, my choice. It’s my, that I have body autonomy. And I was like, you can’t argue with that. And being the hairdresser that has had to learn how to do her hair, I’m the one responsible. So we came downstairs, I took out her extensions, and I chopped all her hair off. I think she looks gorgeous. Her face when she saw herself in the mirror lit up, she’s like, this is what I want. Then she ran into the shower. She washed her hair, she came out the shower, she shook her head, she was like tada, it’s done. And for her, that’s all she wanted. She didn’t want to have to have the drama of brushing her hair, because it was it’s a nightmare. Managing her hair is really hard. Now, the reason I’m telling you this story is because I am no expert on parenting. I have not done any research, I’m just telling you what I’ve been through on my own.
Laura Thomas
You’re a parent, that makes you…
Asher Larmie
I’m a parent, it’s lived experience, that’s all I can tell you. Lived experience. But what I realised in that moment was that actually, I’ve raised a pretty resilient child who is capable of dealing with the bullying because she went to school and people treated her like crap because of her hair. Everyone was like, What have you done, it’s because it’s so dramatic. And everyone commented on it, and people touched it, which she hates. And I knew all of that stuff was coming. But she came home the next day looked at herself in the mirror after schools and was like look at my hair. And then you know, she was into it, she was happy. Even if she wasn’t happy, she could have handled it, I know my kid now well enough to know that. So what I would say about the sort of allowing your children to become who they want to be, and I suppose to grow into their own bodies, whatever that body may look like. If they know their loved, I genuinely believe if they know they’re loved at home, and that their parents think the world of them, and they’re getting a good supportive environment at home. Yeah, there’s probably going to be horrible things happening out there. But they’ll come home to you, and they’ll share all of that stuff with you. And, and I don’t try and fix it ever, I’ve never tried to fix my children’s problems, I just kind of go thank you for sharing that with me and give them a big hug. And let them figure it out. And they just know that there’s always, you know, open arms to cuddle them, and I will always be on their side. So I think, I think as tough as it is, you know, ultimately, you must always put your children’s needs, you know, at heart. So sure, they may end up being the chubby kid, the fat kid, whatever, but, but that’s what their body’s meant to do. If you’re not, you know, if you’re just leaving them be and their bodies actually do that, then that’s what their body’s meant to do. The issue is when you’re constantly restricting them, because if you’re doing that, then their bodies will do things that perhaps their bodies weren’t meant to do, you know, because that they they will go and they will you know, either binge or even, or they’ll just gain weight naturally because you’ve just massively messed with their metabolism. But the worst thing that you can do is I remember getting a or having a conversation with someone once he was just like, you know, I love my son and I know, it was her stepson, and she was like, I know all the right things to do. I really do. But he always asked me for certain foods that I really don’t want to give him because, you know, he’s asking me for chips. He’s asking me for Coke. He’s asking me for like chocolate bars,
Laura Thomas
Stuff kids like
Asher Larmie
Yeah, stuff that I’m like what a surprise because I know what all of those things are and I’d like them too apart from the Coke as we’ve discussed, but I’d make up for it with two chocolate bars, so it’s not a problem. And she was just like, What do I do because I know the right thing to do, but I also am terrified because of you know all that type of diet culture. She was like, what would you do? And I was like give him the Coke, the chocolate and the chips? And she was like, Are you sure? And I was like, Yeah, that’s what I would do. I bet you if you do that for the next month, he’ll stop asking for Coke, he will, because he will just know that he can get it. And, of course, she did. And of course he did and everything, you know, but he was just a, he was a slightly he was, he was a fat kid. But that was that was just who he was, but by being restricted he was like, desperate for these chocolate bars. And I said to her, like, you know, sooner or later, your kid’s gonna be out there going to school on his own, he’s got a bit of money, he’s got bit pocket money, he’s going to go and buy himself, like kids are old enough to buy themselves that stuff.
Laura Thomas
And, and the problem is that if we’ve restricted them, and taught them that those foods are off limits, what’s going to happen, when they do have that autonomy to go out into the world, they’ve got some pocket money, they’ve got an after school, job, whatever, they go, they can go buy their own food, is that they’re going to do it in secret, and develop a lot, a lot, a lot of shame around that behaviour. And, you know, I’ve even heard from from clients, either themselves as children or their own children is that they sometimes steal money from their parents. So you’re getting into this dynamic where your kid is lying to you. And kind of going back to what you were talking about before, it just, it was so beautiful, though, the example that you gave, and I think, so reassuring as well, that actually, you know, we don’t need to have these like, snappy one liners, that we teach our kids, we don’t need to like, have all the books to describe these things. We don’t have to like those things are great, don’t get me wrong, those things are. can be really helpful. But that what it comes back to is that unconditional love and acceptance, and teaching them that they are good, that they are trustworthy, and they can trust their own instincts and that they are fundamentally lovable, and worthy. Whatever their body does, doesn’t do looks like doesn’t look like if they if you can instil that security in them from the beginning, then yes, it’s going to be challenging when they go out into the world, they’re, we’re going to everyone faces shit when they go out into the world in one shape or another. But if they can come home to that secure base, which is you initially but then that secure base becomes their own selves, eventually, through that role modelling that you said like that is just, I think the biggest gift that we can give our kids
Asher Larmie
100%. They need to know that as far as we’re concerned, they are the dogs bollocks, like they are absolutely perfect. And that’s the thing is that when I’m complimenting my children, I will often talk about their incredible personalities and their gifts and their, you know, their qualities and even like the qualities that people like, for example, my youngest is stubborn, but I mean, you could say stubborn in a really negative way. But I’ve often said hey, you know, you’re strong willed, you know what you want, you always have, and that to me speaks about and I speak these things into her every single day. And I have done it to the point where she’s like, Oh my gosh, just stop now. I’ve heard it a million times. But my children know that they are special to me, and that they’re also really wonderful human beings that anybody you know, would be lucky enough to have in their lives. And you know, my middle child has had literally gotten on in secondary school. I wouldn’t say bullied, but definitely had a rough time of it. My oldest had a lot of bullying when he was younger, he was just in a really bad academic year, on with just like bad luck with a whole bunch of really mean kids. So he was bullied. But when they come home, I think there’s a sense of relief that actually it’s safe at home and everything is okay at home. And you know, as you said children do get they do develop shame, my sister is an absolute master wrapping up crisp packets and stuff and folding them into really, really small pieces so that she can dispose of them in the bin without my mum ever knowing, that she got really good at that.
Laura Thomas
Ohhh, I thought you were, I thought you were gonna say that she does like cool origami stuff with her crisp packet, but
Asher Larmie
She knew how to make something big look something really small, so that if it ever got caught, it would look like a crisp packet as opposed to the six crisp packets that she ate and she used to binge quite a bit actually, my sister’s quite, she’s much more out of the two of us, interestingly, probably had more, tended more towards that than I ever did. But she yeah, I can remember the absolute shame but like you said, when you have your own money you’re like going, It becomes a problem. And there are things I’ve had to face as a parent of teenagers. My oldest, alcohol is a classic example. We’ve always been very laid back about alcohol in the home, I’ve never made it a really big thing. I’ve always trusted him. I’ve also I’ve never had parental controls on my computers, I’ve always trusted him. I’ve had conversations with him. There have been times when he has misused those parental, you know,
Laura Thomas
He’s tested the boundaries
Asher Larmie
He’s tested the boundaries, but you know what, that has led to fantastic conversations that has led to me, you know, for example, talking to him about sex and sexuality, making sure that he doesn’t have any shame in that area, talking quite openly about alcohol, drugs, pornography, all of those things, we have these conversations. And those things are so important, because now that he’s 16, I know what his mates are doing. I know how many of them are going off and getting drunk. Yeah, like he’s not out getting pissed. He’s, he’s, he’s learnt drink sensibly, he doesn’t need to keep a secret, he doesn’t need to buy alcohol, like he doesn’t, he doesn’t have to do any of these things. Because I’ve been really chill with him. And I know that I don’t want him to develop a really, I don’t want him to develop an unhealthy relationship where he’s keeping things from me where he’s having to sneak things where he’s having to sneak alcohol or this that because what happens then is the you get into a really tricky relationship with your children, whether through keeping secrets from you in one secret. So say the secret is just buying sweets from the supermarket, or from the corner shop, you know, like, that’s, that’s the little secret when they’re 11, 12. But it will lead to other secrets down, it will escalate to the point where all of a sudden, you’re like, When did my child develop, you know, a drug habit? How did that happen? But you know, I know it sounds extreme. But these things happen all the time, you need to understand that, that for me, my biggest fear has always been that I’ve not known what’s going on whatever it is, as long as I know what it is, I’m okay with it. So I don’t want to ever give my children a reason to go behind my back. I would rather know what was going on. And of course, children need privacy, and they need to be able to keep some secrets from their parents. But these have to be small secrets, not not huge secrets.
Laura Thomas
The point the point is that you want them to trust you enough to be able to come to you when they’re in danger, or they need help or, you know, something like that. Yeah, of course, kids need privacy. And god, I did some ridiculous stuff when I was younger that I kept from from my parents, but, you know, at least for me, I think about with with Avery that that the relationship that we have, that is the most important thing to me more important than, I don’t know, accolades or grades or, you know, whatever career he decides to do. Like, that’s irrelevant if we don’t have a good relationship with each other. So I don’t know, I know, you said you’re not a parenting expert. But I think you’ve got some pretty solid advice there. I have a couple more questions that I wanted, I just wanted to like get back to something you said before, which is that you can’t control your kids bodies, you can’t control them from being fat. That might be a revelation to some people. I mean, depends, like some people are maybe newer to this podcast, and other people have been around for a while, but maybe for people who have, you know, have, not bought in because that makes people sound like they’re really gullible. And yeah, whatever. That’s not what I mean. But for people who, yeah, who haven’t heard yet this idea before that our bodies, our kids bodies are not up for control.
Asher Larmie
And you know, what the problem is, is that the people in their lives who they trust and respect, like the doctors and the nurses and that the people who should be telling them the truth are not. And so of course they buy or they buy into, it’s not buying into you’re being told by your doctor that you can,
Laura Thomas
You’re being indoctrinated
Asher Larmie
You’re indoctrinated, exactly, you’ve been brainwashed. You cannot control your child’s body. You just can’t. And you know, once upon a time, we didn’t. When I was training in medical school, you could not use the body mass index for children, it was not applicable to anyone under the age of 18. It was very strict. And, you know, we used to use the centiles and children would follow a centile and like if your child was born on the 98th percentile, they would be on the 98th centile for the rest of their childhood. And actually, you’d worry if they dropped. So I, you know, children will be what they will be. You have to remember that there are certain things that will happen to your children that’s pretty much guaranteed. Before they go through puberty they’ll gain weight. They just will.
Laura Thomas
Thank you. Oh my god. This might be like the third podcast in a row where I’ve been like Kids need to grow, gain weight before they go through puberty, I cannot say this enough like it because it’s a point where a lot of people intercept with diets, a lot of parents well meaning well intentioned, because well, they’ve, you know, a bit again been indoctrinated into this narrative that obesity is a problem that we need to correct.
Asher Larmie
And I should point out that when I say just before, I’m not talking like for two months before the years leading up to puberty, your child will get chubby, will put weight on around the middle. If you’ve got, if you’ve got a girl, probably you’ll notice that there’s a lot of fat around the chest before they’ve actually you get breast development, hips and thighs, you’re going to notice weight suddenly appear there that wasn’t there before you know. And the same for boys. I mean, your children will get fat at some point in time before puberty. And what we have to remember is of course, puberty can start at nine it can start at 15 anywhere, right? So children will grow at different rates. And this is one of my biggest bugbears when it comes to the weights and measurement put the National Child measurement programme. The biggest issue is they are weighing shortly before, firstly the biggest issue is that they’re weighing children full stop. It’s disgusting, and I can’t stand it. And I have so much to say about it. But when you weigh a child in year six, some of those children are about to go into puberty in the next couple of years, they will be bigger. So you will notice that when children are at the end of primary school, when they’re about 9, 10 11, you will notice that there’ll be some children that are still quite short and very petite. And there’ll be some children that look just you know that they’re much bigger, that is completely normal. And if your child is the slightly kind of chubby one, especially if your child’s getting taller and chubbier, that’s normal. If you mess about with your child in this moment, you are probably going to end up giving them an eating disorder. Let’s face it, statistically speaking, this is the worst time to intervene. But also, you’re going to mess with puberty leave them alone, they are meant to look that way. And children are meant to live that way. Remember when we have babies right, I had a baby that was born on the 75th percentile and lost a tonne of weight. Everybody panics, my baby was not gaining weight at all and dropped to literally the below the 0.4 centile. So from a nutritional point of view, this was terrible. There was, everyone was intervening. I remember taking my baby to the paediatrician who I worked with because I was in paediatrics at the time. And I took it to the very senior senior paediatrician at my hospital and I presented him with my eight month old baby and I said, Look, they’re trying to refer this baby to you. I don’t think there’s anything wrong. She took one look at my son and went there’s nothing wrong, don’t come and see me for another year. And I didn’t, he was fine. My point is that babies do weird things. Some babies are really chubby and squishy and some children, babies are really skinny. Some babies, you know, just will follow will get really chubby really quickly. Mine took a couple of weeks. But when we see a chubby baby, we don’t get go ahhh. Or we didn’t, nowadays probably we do.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I heard some things when mine was little.
Asher Larmie
Yeah, but 10 years ago, thank God when I was having babies, it wasn’t an issue. Your child’s body will do whatever it wants to do from the age of zero until the age of 18. And probably a bit beyond that. Don’t mess with the process. And as we’ve said before, the more you restrict your child, so the more you intervene and say I’m going to put you on a diet, the worse it will be, it will do nothing for your child in the short term. Because their bodies will be what their bodies will be. You can’t get, making children lose weight is almost impossible. They’re growing. So try to force it’s interesting all these child quote unquote Oh, you know I hate this word. But the obese child obesity programmes, zero success rate because children are growing. If children stop gaining weight, there’s a problem. So it doesn’t work. But what it will do is will set them up for a lifetime of disordered eating, maybe an eating disorder, and they’ll end up being fat adults, right? It’s almost guaranteed. If you leave your child alone, just leave them be let them do what they’re gonna do. They’ll be fine. My children eat stupendous amounts of food sometimes, like, to the point where I’m like, I didn’t make enough, I made twice what I thought I needed and I still didn’t make enough. There will be times when loaves of bread will disappear in my house. And I’ll go who took the bread or did someone throw the bread away and my son will look at me and say I just made myself a sandwich. I mean, he must have made himself like a 12 layer sandwich. Like children will eat. They’ll eat and then they’ll eat. Sometimes they’ll crave sweet things, probably because you know, remember, your kids brains are spending an inordinate amount of time trying to learn shit. You need carbohydrates to fuel your brain. So when your child is studying or learning, they’re going to want often sugary things to get that fi, if you leave them alone. They’ll know what they need, they will eat it. And you know, you can introduce positive things about nutrition, you can encourage your children to, you know, eat multicoloured vegetables and stuff to get all the vitamins, and you can talk to them about, you know, that kind of stuff, because I think that’s really helpful, but also only to the point where you can. Only within what’s in your capacity, if you’re really affluent, and you have the time to make healthy, organic, nutritious meals for children, great, but don’t panic if you’re not, it’s not gonna make a difference to your kids. As long as you’re feeding them, they’ll be fine. So if I don’t, I don’t care what yeah, like just just put, put some, some food, some fuel into their mouths, whether it be convenient, so we do not try and make sure that you’re getting all of the you know, basics into them. I’m not going to do that nutrition advice. I’m not a nutritionist, and you are. So I’m not going to do that. But, but like I said, if you’re doing that your kids will be fine. But please, please do not, do not be tempted to try and control your child’s body. It’s literally the worst thing you can do. It will mess with them psychologically, but it will also mess with them physically. And you just don’t want to do that. There will be children, who no matter what happens, will just be on the bigger side of normal. If diabetes runs in your family, if PCOS runs in your family, there’s all sorts of conditions, you might find that even as young as sort of like teenage, your child will start gaining weight, if your kid’s got PCOS, by the time they’re 13, it’s already happening. So just leave them alone, leave them be, let their bodies do what they need to do. And we’ll cross everything, cross the other bridges, if and when we come to it.
Laura Thomas
I think two things that really stuck out for me in that absolutely stunning monologue, we should just make that the whole episode is that two things that really stuck out for me was this idea that your child will become fat. More than likely around that, that point around puberty and the invitation for me there for all of us, is to get comfortable with your child’s body changing and developing. And that’s, it’s also important for us to internalise that as well, because our bodies are constantly changing. Development is, you know, slightly different thing, but, but you know, over over our life course, our bodies are changing constantly, so to get comfortable with that, and also the fact that you can control and restrict and manipulate and micromanage their eating and their exercise to some extent, as a child, but ultimately, it’s, it’s kind of futile because you can’t, you know, you can’t control their their biogenetic destiny because it’s already, it’s already out there. One thing that we can do is help foster a positive relationship with food, and teach them that resilience that you spoke to so beautifully earlier. And those are those are the gifts that we can give our children as parents
Asher Larmie
100% could not agree more. I think that that’s a beautiful way to sum it up. Really. I you know, I feel so sad that the medical profession just hasn’t got this, but what you have to understand is that the medical profession is so tunnel vision and is so blinded now by over 150 years worth of indoctrination of brainwashing when it comes to weight. And I’m in the process of writing a book. They say, you know, so confidently. Everyone’s writing a book, right? But I’m in the process of writing a book and I’m doing a lot of research into the kind of history of modern medicine and especially with regards to to weight and BMI, but actually, on the whole and what it found is that often in fact, almost all of the times doctors especially have been on the wrong side of history and I know that sounds really awful, but people have a huge respect for the doctors that perhaps isn’t really earned because quite often we’ve you know made deals with the devil we’ve we’ve done terrible terrible things and some of the worst atrocities in Western history we were right there waving a flag kind of whoo right at the front.
Laura Thomas
See for instance leeches
Asher Larmie
Yeah, well, no, I mean, like see, for instance, you know, forced euthanasia, to see for instance forced sterilisation and like we can we can go into the really terrible things that doctors have,
Laura Thomas
No, it goes it goes real dark real quick, real quick. I was trying to keep it light.
Asher Larmie
You were, you went leeches. I was thinking like, I was thinking all the horrible things. But you see what I’m trying to say here is that, that you the reason that I am saying these things, and perhaps people will think that’s radical that literally no other doctor out there is saying it. It’s not because I’m wrong. It’s and they’re right. It’s because they have never stopped to ask any questions. Once you stop, and start asking questions, you realise pretty quickly, oh no, this is a load of crap. Once you actually start looking at data, you know, if you say to a doctor good, show me evidence that weight management in children works, show me the numbers, they will be no way, there is no numbers, they will, there’s nothing to show you. The only people who benefit from weight management of children are the companies that provide weight management for children because they get paid by the hour. So please do not invest your child. I mean, it’s, like you said, leave their biogenetic destiny and stop interfering with destiny, and love your kids exactly how they are. And when you start to note, notice that you know that they’re putting on a bit of weight. And you’ve noticing that they’re eating way more than they used to rejoice because sooner or later they’re going through puberty. And let me tell you that’s fun times. Not.
Laura Thomas
I started watching Euphoria the other night. Have you seen it?
Asher Larmie
Oh you don’t need to watch Euphoria, I feel like that’s not, no parent should watch that.
Laura Thomas
I’m like, quickly regretted my decision. I think I don’t think I can go any further , it’s very intense, but it’s also like, if this is anything like even like a fraction of what puberty is gonna be like, I’m out.
Asher Larmie
What’s interesting to me is that they talk a lot in Euphoria. I mean, the main character of Euphoria, when you find out how she got into drugs, it was because of her anxiety, right and not being able to manage anxiety. And that’s the other thing I will tell you is that at some point in time your child is going to develop anxiety, I think it’s a universal thought
Laura Thomas
My child already has it, every time I walk out of the room, “mumma come”
Asher Larmie
So they’ll do it when they’re little. And then they’ll do it again as teenagers. At least twice in their life. So some children will always be anxious, some more than others. But again, that’s kind of like, it’s almost like we need to be told, by the way this is going to happen. Like your kids gonna gain weight. I don’t care whose child they are. Some don’t. Okay, small proportion don’t. But we know that’s their biogenetic destiny. And actually, once upon a time, they wouldn’t have survived evolution wise, they probably didn’t survive anyway. It was the fat ones that survived. And it’s only now that we have modern medicine, that doesn’t isn’t the case. So just leave the bodies alone. And the other thing I really wanted to point out as someone who has studied the human body for quite some time, is that we thought our bodies are meant to self regulate. It’s called homeostasis. And we regulate our own temperatures. We regulate our, you know, sodium, potassium, urea, water, nutrients, you name it, we are self regulating every single hormone everything. Our body is capable of self regulating. When it comes to weight and food, our body knows what’s about to happen. For example, if you’ve got an infection, if you’ve got a little virus that’s come along, you might find if you’re paying close attention that all of a sudden you’re eating certain foods that you’re craving, or you’re eating more, because your body’s already detected infection and your body’s like you might be down for the count for the next 48 hours. So sometimes people will go, if you’re paying attention, will suddenly start eating. And then the next day they wake up, they feel a bit rotten. That’s your body’s way of telling you, I did this for you, you’re welcome. And it’s the same for puberty much more long term, I know what’s about to happen over the next few years, your leg bones are going to double in size. So trust me, I need this weight right now. Because you will not be able to consume enough food to manage that amount of growth. So leave me be. So your children will go through periods when they will start stuffing their faces with everything, they will want to go to McDonald’s and buy a 20 chicken nugget box and literally inhale the whole thing and you will look at them and think I must be the world’s worst parent. But actually, I’m not suggesting that that’s the only thing they can eat. But sometimes that’s how much they need to eat. And it’s fine. Because like I said, that is just what the child needs in that moment.
Laura Thomas
A good source of protein,
Asher Larmie
It is, plenty of chicken that is.
Laura Thomas
Listen, I am conscious of the time here. And I know that people start checking out after the hour mark. I’m gonna I’m gonna scoot this along a little bit because I really want to hear a little bit about this this intersection that you’re so passionate about between medicine and weight stigma or challenging weight stigma disrupting weight stigma and one of the campaigns that you you’ve got going on at the moment is no weigh campaign. Can you share a little bit about what that is and why you’re doing that? I mean, I guess we know why but yeah.
Asher Larmie
So obviously I want to disrupt weight stigma in any way I can. Specifically within the medical profession. I want to be able to help people to advocate for themselves, fat people to advocate for themselves and the doctors. People need that like just it’s this is what they need. So I produced a website where there are a lot of FAQs and a lot of information. There are cards, there are leaflets that you can download. There’s all sorts of stuff out there but if you need help in this very moment, advocating for yourself with a doctor or a health professional, you can access quite a lot of information there and hopefully I will update it over time. But the idea of the campaign is very simple to to, to get rid of weight stigma in medicine, I believe there’s a few things that we need to do. The first thing is we need to stop weighing people and we need to get rid of BMI. It’s that simple. I think that will go a long way. But it’s not everything we also need to take out the we need to stop being so weight normative and start being weight inclusive. So stop focusing on weights, everything doesn’t have to revolve around weight, we could literally take weight out of the conversation and still practice medicine exactly the same way as we’ve been practising up until now. So just literally removing weights from the conversation. I also think that we need to stop stigmatising people and by stigmatising I mean, like, you know, this is the kind of manifestation of these stereotypes. So a doctor thinks that a person is lazy, and therefore makes suggestions that they’re lazy or says something that was really offensive or doesn’t do something because, you know, they think they’re lazy, or whatever. And there’s physical ways, like not taking your blood pressure with the correct blood pressure cuff. But there’s also lots of different ways that doctors will stigmatise their patients. And so we need to get rid of weight stigma from the consultation. And in order to do that, we need health professionals to challenge their own implicit and explicit anti fat bias. So this is essential as well. And finally, we need to put the weight management programmes out of business, we need to remove the money from the weight loss industry, especially the money that’s being funnelled into it like health care, like, by, you know, that’s something specific that I want to do. So those are four massive challenges. And so I remember, like, thinking about this, like, how do we cope with that? Where do you even start? Where do you even start, but to me, there has to be something that you can hang your hat on something that you can say, Look, this is the very beginning and let it snowball from there. So for me, if you don’t allow anyone to weigh you, they cannot use your BMI because they don’t have your BMI, it must be an up to date weight. So if you stop letting people weigh you, they can’t use your BMI, they can’t talk about your weight with you, because they don’t know how much you weigh, apart from eyeballing you and you know, that’s not that’s not correct, they can’t refer you to a weight management programme because they need your up to date BMI. And so actually, by refusing to be weighed you can actually disrupt things in quite a very meaningful way. And if the entire nation, just hypothetically speaking, were all to say no to being weighed, then we’d have a revolution, we’d have an absolute like, because they would, you know, that was snowball pretty quickly. So I guess when I was thinking about the campaign, I wanted to provide resources. But I also wanted to do something very small, very simple, which is just to encourage people to just say no to being weighed, like anytime someone asks you to weigh you just say no, there will only be a handful of reasons I used to say until it’s medically necessary, I might change it to you unless my life is in danger or unless, unless it’s a life threatening or limb threatening situation. Because you really don’t need people’s weights. There’s only a few medicines, everyone’s all like you need my weight for my medication. No, you don’t. What a load of nonsense. There’s only a few handful of times that’s true. So just learning to say no to being weighed. And I think there’s a lot of young people out there who already like, you know, just like that’s a bit suss. I’m not doing that. But if we could all get in the habit of following the 15 year olds that are just not doing it, we would have, we would see a massive change. Yeah. And you don’t have to be fat to say no to being no weighed. Anyone can say no to that because it’s not necessary. And it can be, you know, quite a liberating thing. So that’s, that’s the simple as as simple as it is really. Just say no.
Laura Thomas
Can I ask some follow up questions?
Asher Larmie
Yes, of course.
Laura Thomas
So I’m just I’m just thinking, what people might be wondering, based on that. And I will caveat this, I’m fully on board with you. Yes. But something I experienced in my pregnancy was, I sat, it was really one of many, many awful appointments with a midwife. And they wanted to weigh me, and I said, I don’t want to be weighed. And so I didn’t give my consent. And they were like, computer says, No, we need your weight. I know, right? And, and so like I did, I turned around and I didn’t look at the scales, but then it’s it’s everywhere, right? So you end up seeing it. And I’m fine with that. But at the same time, I have a, I had a lot of privilege in that position, and it was safe for me, relatively speaking. I mean, it was still a horrendous experience. But I guess what I’m thinking about is, is people’s safety, having these conversations, and what advice you have for navigating that?
Asher Larmie
Look, consent is the single most important thing in healthcare, right? If you withdraw your consent from anything, and someone tries to coerce you, you know, when we talk about consent, think of when we’re talking about it in terms of sex, it’s the same thing. If you’re in a room with someone else who has the power, and you say no, at any point in time, you can say yes, and then change your mind and say no, at any point in time, if that person does not respect you, they are assaulting you. And that is the correct terminology. It is a assault, it’s not sexual assault, it’s medical assault, but it is assault nonetheless.
Laura Thomas
And that is, that is in the NHS charter as well. I feel like people don’t know that they have the option to say no. To say I don’t consent to this.
Asher Larmie
But beyond it being in the NHS charter, it’s the law as in you can prosecute.
Laura Thomas
That trumps everything, especially if you’re a politician,
Asher Larmie
Right. So folks, if you say I did not consent, and somebody says to you something ridiculous, like computer says no, you repeat
Laura Thomas
Those were not the nurses words.
Asher Larmie
I know, but that’s what they’re saying, isn’t it? Well, we need a way, you can be very firm and say, again, I’m being quite serious here, I refuse my consent to be weight. And if they push it beyond that, just ask for their GMC or NMC number, whatever, if they’re a nurse or midwife or a doctor, just ask for their number, just like that. Say it like that. Be vicious. Boop, they have to withdraw. And a lot of people say, Oh, I don’t want to upset my healthcare professional, because I’m afraid that they’re going to treat me differently, folks, here’s a little thing that you need to know, we are terrified of being sued, right? If you’ve ever had a lawsuit and believe me, when you’re a doctor, you cannot live without being sued at least once in your life is a horrendus experience, it is terrifying to be sued. The moment a patient gets snappy, we back down because we think the last thing I want is a complaint or worse still to be sued. So they may not like you. But believe me when I tell you, they’re going to treat you with kid gloves from that moment onwards. So sometimes, if you want to just be the difficult one, just be like No, you know, give me your give me your DMC number if you want to take it there. And usually it’s not necessary. The other thing that I would recommend to most people is actually just to do this all in advance so that you don’t have to have this conversation. I have cards, as I said, and I have leaflets as well, you can print them out, you can give them to your midwife, doctor, whoever in advance, ask them to staple it to your notes, ask them to put it in the computer, whatever you want to do. So that it is very clear that under no circumstance are they to weigh you ever. Can I just point out that it is never necessary to weigh a person who is pregnant unless you have a concern about the amniotic fluid, and you’ve got it like because sometimes we’re measuring the fluid, or fluid in general, fluid is one of the only times we have to weigh people because we’re monitoring fluid in and fluid out. But if you’re having a normal pregnancy, there is no need to weigh you ever, not at the booking, not at the end, not in the middle, never. They want to do it because that’s part of their systems and pathways. But you can be a disrupter of those systems and pathways without worrying about any of the consequences. So please, I encourage you, if you say no way, and someone says yes way, you say very firmly, no. And if they keep pushing, you push back and say hey, listen, I’m going to put in a formal complaint if you keep doing it. I have said no, I have refused my consent. And also, don’t say no, say I refuse consent, because the word is a big word. So I refuse consent is a really powerful thing to say. I imagine it’s the same when you’re having sex, if you turn around, say no, compared to hey, I refuse my consent. I would like to think that actually I refuse my consent is quite a strong, powerful statement, like you push me and you’re committing assault. And that’s what every doctor and nurse must think anytime you say I refuse my consent. And believe me, even if you’re dying, literally dying in front of our eyes. If you say I refuse my consent, we must respect that, we cannot lay a finger on you, it is against the law end the discussion.
Laura Thomas
I mean, it’s it’s great to hear it straight from the horse’s mouth as it were, from the perspective that you know, yeah, just kind of having a little bit of insight into what is going through the mind of a doctor when and then the specific wording to use as well. I think that that’s really, really super helpful. And hopefully it helps people advocate for themselves. So I’m going to link to all of that in the show notes there. Your no weight campaign and your website and everything so that people can download those resources. It sounds like incredibly helpful tool. So thank you for that. Okay, let’s do that’s my jam for anyone who’s still listening.
Asher Larmie
That’s hilarious, I’m sorry.
Laura Thomas
No, no, I love I really love talking to you. I just maybe we’ll break that episode up into two parts, and then it’s a little easier for folks to digest. But at the end of every episode, my guests and I share it something that they’ve been really into at the moment. So what’s your jam currently?
Asher Larmie
Okay, so I really hope you don’t take offence at this Laura because actually, it’s a it’s a podcast, but it’s a completely different podcast.
Laura Thomas
You know, you’re not allowed to listen to any other podcast. How dare you?
Asher Larmie
I just think that people who are listening to this podcast might be really into podcasts. So I am really, really into learning about fat politics and like the social justice side of things. And I truly believe that if you want to learn about anti fatness and the social justice side of fat politics and anti fatness and weight, weight, stigma et cetera, et cetera, which I think should be an essential part of your learning, then wherever you are, of course, you need to do all of the other stuff that you’re doing. But that should be part of your learning. And I think if you want to do that, you need to listen to people who are A absolute experts B have lived experience. C have multiple marginalised identities themselves, because people who hold multiple marginalised identities are absolute experts in stigma like just generally because they’re being stigmatised for a whole host of things. So if you really want to listen to a podcast, I love it. It’s Unsolicited Fatties Talk Back. It’s Marquisele, Da’Shaun Harrison, Caleb Luna, it’s Bryan and it’s Jordan, right? So five people who talk about some hilarious stuff sometimes, sometimes talk about serious stu,ff most of the time mixing it up. And I really recommend it. So for a completely different experience, but still in this area that is my jam.
Laura Thomas
As soon as I tweaked what you were talking about there, I was like yes, okay, I will condone, unsolicited, unsolicited faties talk back, if I could get my words out, is such a great listen. It’s just yeah, like you said, there’s a mixture of like, really light hearted fun stuff. And they talk about some really important, really heavy stuff. And absolutely, like essential listening to, I think, further interrogate anti fat bias. If that’s something that you’re you’re trying to unlearn. So yeah, I really, really liked that podcast as well. Okay, mine is going to just be kind of boring in relation to that. But um, I’m enjoying gardening at the moment, I don’t actually have a garden. I have like a little tiny balcony, on my flat, but I’m just like, crammed in as many plants as I possibly can. And my strawberry plants have started growing teeny tiny strawberry babies, and my tomatoes are starting to get a little flowers on them. And this wouldn’t be all that exciting without the context of like, I have tried to, this is our like, third summer in this flat. And for the past two years, I have tried to grow something but because I’ve had a tiny human attached to me that whole time, I’ve not been able to keep anything alive. So the fact that I’m starting to see the possibility that I might be able to grow something and not die immediately is very exciting to me. So that’s my jam at the moment, is just kind of hanging out on my little balcony with all my plant babies.
Asher Larmie
I love it. Growing stuff is amazing. It’s so much fun, whether it’s a human or whether it’s a plant, it’s fantastic.
Laura Thomas
Those are very wildly different things. But both wonderful. Asher let people know where they can find you on the interwebs.
Asher Larmie
On the interwebs Well, I used to have an account fatdoctoruk on Instagram, I don’t have that anymore. So actually now life is a lot easier because I’m @thefatdoctoruk on Twitter and Insta. I think I’m still fatdoctoruk on tik tok, but like if you go to www.fatdoctor.co.uk a lot of my stuff is there. I do a monthly webinar, which is next Wednesday. Actually, I was thinking I don’t know when this is going to be out.
Laura Thomas
This is not going to be out in time, sorry.
Asher Larmie
Yeah, sorry. So it’s the first Wednesday of every month I do a webinar on, I pick a topic, health topic and I do like a deep dive into the research so that’s called the waiting room but spelled weight.
Laura Thomas
Love it, I’m really sad that I didn’t think of that myself.
Asher Larmie
So the weighting room and that’s I do that once a month so you can join that. Patreon. I mean, you can you can find me just go to one of my accounts and then you can get linked into the other stuff. Yeah, also visit noweigh.org. Again, no weight meaning n o w e i g h, noweigh.org For, like it’s free, I’m not selling you anything like there’s nothing to sell. So you can use those resources, you can download them, you can use them as many times as you like. You can’t copy the material, but you can print out and use it and share it and I want it to be shared. So go for it.
Laura Thomas
I’ll link to all of those in the show notes anyway, so people don’t have to worry about spelling and stuff like that boring stuff. But Asher this was really fun, I really enjoyed this conversation and just really appreciate all the work that you’re doing to change the narrative around weight in the medical profession. And oh, I had one last question. I want to ask you really quickly. What do your, what do your kids think about the fact that you’re like, internet famous?
Asher Larmie
Oh my god they hate it. They absolutey hate it. First of all, I don’t you know, I think they don’t know, it doesn’t register. But I like the idea that I’m ever like on like TV or radio. So no, definitely not a fan. But if I ever like you know, get a book sale for a million pounds, which I’ll never do, but if I ever were, then they’d be huge fans, which I think is hypocrisy if you ask me. But yeah, they’re not big fans.
Laura Thomas
Alright, thank you so much for doing this. It was really fun.
Laura Thomas
All right, team. That’s this week’s show. If you’d like to learn more about today’s guest, then check out the show notes in your podcast player, or head to laurathomasphd.co.uk for more details or the full transcript from today’s episode. Big thanks to Joeli Kelly for editorial and transcription support. And if you need to get in touch with me then you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk or find me on Instagram @bub.appetit. And if you enjoyed today’s episode, then you can help the show reach more people by subscribing on your podcast player and sharing it with a friend. Alright team. I will catch you next Friday with a brand new episode.
See you there.
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