We’re back with a brand new guest this week on Don’t Salt My Game – the lovely Oona Hanson. Oona spent 25 years in education and now helps parents and guardians raise kids who have a healthy relationship with food and their body. As well as her private practice as a parent coach, she also works as a family mentor at Equip and holds a master’s degree in educational psychology and a master’s degree in English. Her work has been featured widely including on CNN, USA Today, Good Morning America, US News and World Report Today, People and Parents Magazine.
In this episode, we cover some really big and important topics like;
- The challenges of feeding teens
- Some of the nuances of using the Division of Responsibility with older kids and teens and why Oona actually doesn’t use it at all with her own family
- Why language like “hollow legs” and “bottomless pit” are really problematic when talking about bodies and appetites, especially for teenagers
- Who is allowed to own their appetite and who isn’t
- Red flags for eating disorders and disordered eating
- The parallels between bodies changing in teenagers, as well as body’s changing in midlife amongst parents
- How we can create a safe environment for normalising body changes.
I really love talking to Oona and really appreciate her work. I know that so many of you are going to resonate with this episode and find it super helpful, and if you do then please share the love and share it with friends and family, and hit subscribe to stay in the loop with new episodes dropping weekly.
Show Notes:
- Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter
- Follow Oona on Instagram
- Follow Don’t Salt My Game on Instagram
- Laura’s Website
- Oona’s Website
- Sign up for the Let’s Talk About Snacks, Baby Workshop
- Book in for a complimentary 15-minute Discovery Call with Laura
- Check out this piece Oona wrote about why Division of Responsibility might not be suitable to use with eating disorders
- Listen to the Don’t Salt My Game episode with Scott Griffiths talking about muscle dysmorphic disorder
- Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns
- Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course
- Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It
- Edited by Joeli Kelly
Transcript:
Oona Hanson
Those teen and tween years are tender for our kids. And they tend to be very vulnerable times for us as parents as well. So just kind of acknowledging that like, Oh, we’re kind of in this together, we’re navigating body change, and how do I want to model for my kids what body change can be like, right? Is it something to fight against? Is it something to be ashamed of? Or, you know, or is it something to be embraced and acknowledged and talked about in a more matter of fact, way?
Laura Thomas
Hey, team, welcome back to Don’t Salt My Game where I’m having conversations with game changers who are flipping diet culture on its head. I’m Laura Thomas. I’m a Registered nutritionist who specialises in intuitive eating and anti-diet nutrition. And I’m the author of Just Eat It and How to Just Eat It. Today I’m talking to Oona Hanson, a parent coach who specialises in anti diet parenting, and we’re focusing on teens and tweens in this episode. But first, I wanted to let you know about July’s workshop: Let’s talk about snacks baby.
When I asked on my Instagram Stories, which workshop I should run next, it was pretty clearly weighted towards snacks. People seem to have a lot of feelings about snacks. So we’re going to unpack that a bit. In this workshop, we’re going to cover how to set boundaries around snacks, how to deal with constant requests for snacks, and why it’s not always about the food. We’ll talk about what if they only want to eat snacks, and the thing that plagues me most as a parent, what the hell to actually give them for a snack. We’ll talk about why rice cakes are not a snack, and how to deal with restrictive school snack policies. And lastly, we’ll think a bit about your relationship with snacks as a parent, because like I said, people have feelings and it should go without saying as well that I’m going to be looking at all of this through an anti diet body affirming and intuitive eating lens. The workshop will be on Thursday, the 28th of July at seven o’clock. It will be around 90 minutes. So we should have plenty of time at the end to answer your questions about snacking and how snacks fit in with other aspects of feeding kids. Everything will be on Zoom and you’ll be able to watch the recording back for a week afterwards too. If you’re in another timezone or you can’t watch it live for whatever reason, it costs 15 pounds. And if that doesn’t feel accessible to you right now then please just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk and we’ll hook you up with a comp spot on the webinar. No questions asked. And as with the raising intuitive eaters webinar, I’d say this is best suited to parents of kids who are 12 and under. So again, if you’d like to sign up for that, the link is in the show notes for this episode.
Alright team today I’m talking to the very lovely Oona Hanson all about food and body image for adolescents. And for those of you who don’t know Oona, she spent 25 years in education. And now she helps parents and guardians raise kids who have a healthy relationship with food and their body. As well as her private practice as a parent coach, Oona also works as a family mentor at Equip, an all virtual eating disorder treatment programme in the US. Oona holds a master’s degree in educational psychology and a master’s degree in English. And her work has been featured widely including on CNN, USA Today, Good Morning America, US News and World Report Today, People and Parents Magazine, and she lives in LA with her husband and her two teenagers. In this episode, we are thinking all about the challenges of feeding teens. We talk about some of the nuances of using the division of responsibility with older kids and teens. And why Oona actually doesn’t use it at all with her own family. We talk about why language like “hollow legs” and “bottomless pit” are really problematic when talking about bodies and appetites, especially for teenagers. Plus we think a little more on who is allowed to own their appetite and who isn’t. Plus we look at the red flags for eating disorders and disordered eating. And the parallels between bodies changing in teenagers, as well as body’s changing in midlife amongst parents and how we can create a safe environment for normalising body changes. I really love talking to Oona and really appreciate her work and we will definitely be talking to her in the future. So if you have any other questions about parenting teens without diet culture, then please email them to me at hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk. I am definitely roping Oona into a special project I’m working on at the moment. Speaking of that special project that I’m working on at the moment, I kind of alluded to this a little bit last week, just to let you all know that for the month of August, I’m actually going to be taking a break from the podcast, a little summer hiatus. But I am going to be back in September, with some pretty cool changes, I’m going to be renaming the podcast and I have something else that’s really cool where we can build more of a sense of community around the podcast and the ideas of anti-diet parenting, which I’m so excited to share with you all. I’ll probably just be a little off the grid in terms of socials until then, because it’s a pretty huge project pulled together, but trust me, it’s going to be good. All right, we still have a couple more episodes left though of Don’t Salt My Game before we retire this podcast and start anew and before we take a little break, so make sure that you tune in for the rest of July. All right, team, here’s Oona.
All right, we’re going to start with some quick fire action. So I’m going to ask a question. And I want to know the first thing that comes to mind. Are You Ready?
Oona Hanson
Ready
Laura Thomas
All right, let’s do it. What subject did you like best at school?
Oona Hanson
English
Laura Thomas
Most refreshing beverage
Oona Hanson
You know, I love iced coffee in the morning. And it just makes my day.
Laura Thomas
It’s a great answer. I will accept it. tacos or pizza?
Oona Hanson
Tacos, for sure.
Laura Thomas
You’re in California, right?
Oona Hanson
Yes.
Laura Thomas
Has to be tacos then. Okay, and if you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be?
Oona Hanson
Oh, this is such a hard one. You know, we’ve been home so much that I actually really like where I am. It’s hard to pick a place that I would want to go because I have been travelling or anything like that. So yeah, I don’t have a good answer for that. I apologise.
Laura Thomas
That’s that, you know, that’s a fair point. And honestly, if you are content exactly where you are, then that’s the best possible answer. Favourite. Oh, no. Do you have a hidden talent?
Oona Hanson
I would say my hidden talent is I can do one of those whistles with my fingers in my mouth that can like project through a you know, a huge auditorium.
Laura Thomas
Oh, wow. I was gonna ask you to do it, but I figured that’s probably too loud for people’s ears right now.
Oona Hanson
Would definitely be too loud. But it’s, it’s come in handy many times and it always gets a big reaction.
Laura Thomas
That’s kind of cool, I wish I could do something like that. But I don’t have that skill. Okay, now your favourite flavour of cake?
Oona Hanson
You know, it’s funny. I’m not a huge fan of cake. So can I give a sort of a side answer like I love like a brownie? I don’t know if you call them the same thing there.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, no, we do brownies. Like I will accept brownies. They’re part of like the broader cake family. If you were gonna like tell me that you didn’t like sweets, then we might have to just like eject you from the podcast. But yeah, brownies I feel like are a sub genre of cake. So do you have like a particular kind of brownie that you like? Or is it just like any old brownie will do? Because my husband is very particular about brownies, that’s why I ask.
Oona Hanson
Yeah, I think I’m an equal opportunity brownie lover. And I can go edge or middle. Yeah, it’s all good.
Laura Thomas
It’s all good. Okay, brownies. And then last quickfire question, what is your favourite kitchen utensil?
Oona Hanson
Let’s see, I do have a KitchenAid. Mixer. Stand Mixer, that, you know, when it’s especially at the holidays, getting it out to bake it just, and I have it in this really beautiful orange colour. It sits on the counter, you know, all year round. And it just, it makes me happy even when I’m not using it.
Laura Thomas
I can see that. I’m always envious of people who have like nice kitchen kit like that. So that’s, that’s, that’s a great one. So Oona on the podcast, I have spent a lot of time thinking about feeding younger kids, I have a toddler myself. So I feel like I’ve been really catering to like the under five set and sort of neglecting older kids, especially tween teens and tweens, which is why I wanted to get you on because I feel that’s really your like, area. And I wanted to think more about some of the specific challenges of feeding older kids, especially as they’re growing more autonomy and independence. And something that you’ve spoken about is how although you’re an advocate for the division of responsibility and feeding that you don’t actually use it with your own teens. So I wonder if you could share a little bit more on that. And then maybe we can think about some things that are helpful around feeding older kids.
Oona Hanson
Yeah. So, you know, the way I learned about division of responsibility was kind of the hard way. I had a child develop an eating disorder and in my research to learn about you know, how kids eat and the research on, you know, the feeding, relationship and family feeding and everything related to eating. I came across Ellyn Satter’s work and the division of responsibility. And I thought it was really interesting. It’s definitely something that I recommend, to families to explore. But in my own house, you know, having a child go through anorexia, I have a, just a different perspective on hunger and kids wanting to eat. So I can never tell a kid in my house, the kitchen is closed, or you can’t eat right now. So instead, if it’s 10 minutes before dinner, I might say, oh, dinner’s at six. And it’s really up to them if they need a quick type meal or snack or not. And I don’t stress about it, if they end up having a big snack, and then not a lot of dinner, that’s okay with me, if they’re getting fed and getting their needs met. That’s what matters to me. And I think the the way that I think about it in terms of how I coach other families is to really think about the division of responsibility in terms of kind of the structure piece of having regular meal and snack times, and really making sure that we’re providing enough for our teens and tweens, as I know, you talked about recently, this is such a rapid time of growth. So the amounts of food that you might have been used to them eating, that could really have changed, their tastes may have changed a little bit. So really making sure that we’re providing an abundance of food and that, for me, that unconditional permission to eat is something that you know, our teens, you know, because they’re spending a lot more time out in the world. And they’re hearing a lot of messages about you know, donate this, cut this out, don’t eat too much. And so I think at home, it’s really important that we as parents are kind of modelling that, like, it’s, it’s always okay to be, you know, to have an appetite and to enjoy food. So that’s really shaped my perspective on how things work in our house. And I know every family is different. So you know, if the division of responsibility and that sort of adolescent kind of adaptation is working for our family? That’s great.
Laura Thomas
I guess, well, a couple of things. First of all, you wrote a great piece about going into depth about why you don’t use the division of responsibility, and why it’s not appropriate for using really with someone with a history of an eating disorder, or with an active eating disorder. So I’m going to link to that in the show notes so that people can kind of have a bit more context there. But it’s interesting that you that you’re, you say that you don’t use the division of responsibility, because what I hear is, is that you use a really flexible, you have a really flexible, adaptive way of using the division of responsibility, which is kind of more how I would teach it, which I think is, you know, with this piece that I spoken to Katja Rowell about and others on the podcast, which is is the responsive piece, the piece of, you know, responding to the needs of your own individual child and their own circumstances, you know, the specific circumstances of of your family. So it’s kind of, I don’t know, maybe some sort of like amalgamation of the two things together.
Oona Hanson
Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think I would guess a, you know, yeah, a purist of, you know, division of responsibility would, you know, yeah, they would say, they would see my teens, like, you know, grazing on snacks on certain days or, you know, helping themselves to things, you know, outside of kind of those designated meal or snack times and probably say that, like, I’m doing it wrong, you know, that. That’s, I mean, that whole idea of parents like doing it right or wrong. It’s something that, you know, I think, really, it’s counterproductive in general. But yeah, so it’s, it’s flexible. And we do have structured meal times, which I think is really helpful for teens, especially when their, you know, their sleep schedule, you know, there can be a lot of, especially in the summertime, you know, if they’re out of school, and there’s just very little structure, having that structured mealtime, I think it’s really comforting. And it’s a way to help them make sure they’re getting enough to eat throughout the day, which is going to help their mood and obviously, their growth and all of that.
Laura Thomas
And I love how kind of accepting you are of teens appetite. And I was thinking about this a little bit earlier. I hear from a lot of parents, while they asked me, you know, how can I use the division of responsibility with like, my tweens or my teens? And I was sort of reflecting on this and wondering how much of that is about control and making sure kids eat you know, the so called right foods or the right amounts of foods? What you’re like nodding away there. What are your thoughts on that?
Oona Hanson
Yeah, I think parents are under so much pressure, to have their kids eat a certain way or look a certain way. And so it makes sense that someone might hear about the division of responsibility and think, Oh, this is a way I can like control this environment because that’s what I’ve been told a good parent should do, right, to make sure they eat these certain types of foods or that I’m offering these certain types of foods. And then I’m controlling the foods that are available because that’s, you know, when they’re toddlers, of course, you’re the one doing the grocery shopping or the meal planning, or you’re ordering the takeout. But in the teen and tween years, you know, it makes sense for our kids to have a lot more say in in the what, right, if they’re asking for you know, they’ve had something delicious at a friend’s house and they want to try it, they’re going to be giving us a lot more input on the on the what. So that’s where I think things really shift in the adolescent years, I think we want to be bringing our kids to the grocery store. Now, budget constraints, allergies, I mean, there are things where we might have to say no, but to really start building in that skill of like, what looks interesting, what do I want to try? If it’s too rigid? Like you were saying, like, if it’s not flexible enough, I think it can really send a message of restriction. And, of course, we know what happens, right? If kids are restricted, they’re going to get their needs met, right. And so they might, you know, that’s where we might see bingeing or secret eating, or it could lead to, you know, a further restriction and orthorexia or anorexia. So it’s really more likely to backfire in, you know, really unhealthy ways. So, having that openness. But to your point, I think the fears around adolescent weight gain, right, are driving a lot of this because parents have been told to be careful, right, and to watch their kids growth. And when your kids are in the teen and tween years, it’s also likely that you’re yourself entering middle age, and your own body might be changing. So they’re, and your own doctor might be telling you certain things that you should be restricting or watching your weight. And so it can really be this sort of hormonal body change, perfect storm. Yeah, in a lot of families. So if you know, if a parent is going, you know, been told by their doctor to cut out certain things, you know, that can really have a ripple effect to the whole family. So those teen and tween years are tender for our kids. And they tend to be very vulnerable times for us as parents as well. So just kind of acknowledging that like, Oh, we’re, we’re kind of in this together, we’re navigating body change, and how do I want a model for my kids? What body change can be like, right? Is it something to fight against? Is it something to be ashamed of? Or, you know, or is it something to be embraced and acknowledged and talked about in a more matter of fact way?
Laura Thomas
Yeah. I think you’re the first. I mean, not the first person in the history of the world. First person on the podcast who’s kind of drawn that thread through between puberty and the the rapid growth that happens in the adolescent years through to menopause or perimenopause for some people and the body changes that occur for adults in those like, middle years. And I love what you’re saying there about having open conversations and modelling for your kids how to gracefully tackle er, tackle’s maybe not the right word, but approach body changes. And yeah, it’s, you know, I have thought a lot about how watching kids body’s changing, can bring up a lot of stuff for us, even younger kids. But especially going through the rapid development around puberty, what would you have to say to parents who are struggling with their own relationship with their bodies with their own relationship with food going through, you know, seeing their, their kids bodies change like this?
Oona Hanson
Yeah, this I mean, people always ask me, What’s the best thing I can do for my kids body image? And it’s almost always kind of start working on your own body image, right? So I would say parents and guardians need a lot of support in this area, you might realise, oh, seeing my kid enter kind of the awkward middle school years. I don’t know what you call it middle school there, but sort of like, age like 11 to 14, kind of the sort of peak puberty years for most kids that can bring up a lot of feelings for parents of like, Oh, I remember when I was that age, and maybe I was teased, or I didn’t feel like I fit in and then as our body’s changing in midlife, you know, there’s so much pressure among our own. And we think about peer pressure being a teen issue. There’s peer pressure for us, you know, as moms and dads in midlife, because diet, culture talk is everywhere. You know, it’s hard to get a group of people together, especially if there’s food involved, where people aren’t talking about their new diet or their new fitness, you know, regimen. I think really finding a community of people who are working on their body image is really helpful. So whether that’s Instagram, whether that’s one friend, a great place, Virginia Soul Smith’s newsletter, Burnt Toast is a great community of, it’s not all parents, but it’s a lot of parents and guardians who are kind of working on their own relationship with food and body while also feeding kids. So starting to just reflect on your own on your own body image, you know, I mean, the simplest thing, it’s not simple if you’re, you know, worried if you’re having a child trouble paying for things, but the simplest thing is to make sure you have clothes that fit your body, as it is now, getting rid of the bathroom scale, you know, like these really practical things, I think we think like, oh, I have to do like years of therapy, to heal my body image. And some people might, might really need that and benefit from that. But a lot of people just having clothes that fit comfortably, and getting rid of that bathroom scale, like that can get you so far into not having body concerns be top of mind all day long. That can really be a practical way to start the process of healing your own body image.
Laura Thomas
No those are definitely like, you know, the low hanging fruit when I’m working with parents, and clients just generally, they’re not necessarily parents. But yeah, definitely that piece of making sure you’ve got something comfortable to put on your body. Which, you know, we could have a whole conversation about the accessibility of that. But also just getting rid of the bathroom scales. Yeah, just two super simple things that you can do. And I totally agree that the best thing that we can do for our kids body images, is looking at our own body image. And I just want to say as well that it doesn’t have to be perfect. You don’t have to have your stuff all figured out. I like to think of that, well. It’s a relationship, right? The the relationship we have with our body is a relationship like any other. And so it requires work. And some days, it’s going to feel a lot harder. But you know, just in the same way you don’t give up on a friendship or a marriage or any other relationship. In a day you can’t, you give up on your, the relationship you have with your body. Just because one day is is tough, I wanted to go back to the piece that we were thinking about about around appetite, because there’s something you you’ve been talking about a little bit on your Instagram lately that feels kind of relevant to think about just now, I’ve seen you talk about memes that kind of make a joke about how much teens eat. I haven’t actually seen any of these. But I’d be interested if you could tell us a little bit more about them and why you think they’re problematic.
Oona Hanson
First thing I want to say is that parents do need community and humour and sometimes dark humour is what gets us through. Right? And so, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s been a proliferation of kind of parenting humour sites that, you know, or, you know, funny parenting tweets of the week or things like that, that kind of gets spread around. And, you know, the ones that are about food and body always kind of raise a little red flag for me. So I probably noticed them more than the average person. But I’ve noticed there’s a kind of a recurring joke about, you know, teens, you know, how many gallons of milk are you going through, and, you know, the, the grocery bill or the how many, you know, pizza boxes, there are, you know, and, and I get that for parents, especially right now, where food is so much more expensive. You know, there can be that real pain point of like, oh, my gosh, how much of our family budget is going toward food. And so I get that that’s a very, very real concern. And I think there’s also this sort of shock and awe of like, how much a teenager can eat and that can scare parents. You know, whether, you know, they’re worried that they haven’t taught their kid the so called right way to eat, or they might think of something as bingeing when it’s really just a hearty appetite. So I think these jokes speak to some underlying fears that parents have. So setting aside the financial impact of inflation around food, I think a lot of it is coming from kind of fat phobia, or there’s jokes about, you know, I wish I could eat like that, where there’s like that restriction piece for a parent. And so my, my big concern is that parents might make jokes in front of their kids about how much they’re eating. And that, to me is where a lot of unintended harm could happen.
Laura Thomas
Yeah. And you in your post, you mentioned, like some language that we use that I hadn’t even thought of until you pointed it out, but things like hollow legs and bottomless pit and I was again, reflecting on this a little bit and thinking about how oftentimes the way that we talk about kids or talk about our kids appetites, or more specifically, who is allowed in inverted commas to have a big appetite is gendered. And often the way that that goes is that, you know, boys are allowed in inverted commas to have a big appetite. But that girls and gender diverse kids, they need to like watch what they’re eating, and they need to have these, you know, it’s a kind of a prerequisite to being feminine to have a small appetite. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.
Oona Hanson
Absolutely. And it reminds me there is a great short essay that Glennon Doyle wrote, I think I read it in O magazine, where she had teenagers hanging out in her house. And, you know, she was like, Are you hungry? And they were boys and girls and boys like, Yeah, let’s have pizza. And the girls were saying, Oh, no, we’re fine. And she kind of had this moment with them. It was sort of like, I think you are hungry. And you know, in my house, you know, food is, is for everyone. I’m paraphrasing. But it was a great short essay. And it was just a really poignant, look at that question that you’re that you’re posing about how girls have been socialised to deny their hunger, especially in a, you know, mixed setting, that it’s seen as more feminine, as you said, to eat like a bird or, you know, there can just even be embarrassment about eating in front of other people, for a lot of for a lot of girls. And that being said, Boys are under so much pressure now to try to control their appearance and their food. So, you know, I think I want to make sure I point out that it’s a myth that only girls might restrict their food or try to manipulate their bodies and more and more boys and people of all genders are really under so much pressure. It’s not just affecting half the population. Because all these diet culture messages.
Laura Thomas
Yeah. I think parents of, of boys, or you know, folks, socialised as boys are kind of feel like they’re sort of let off the hook a little bit when it comes to conversations around body image and disordered eating and diet culture. I know, like, even I sort of feel that way. I have a boy. And like, I’m like, well, it’s not going to be as bad for him as it was if I had a girl. I know that’s not true. It’s like a conversation I’ve had to talk myself through. But I think it just goes to show that yeah, we have these double standards, even in the way that we think about approaching kids with these things. I don’t know what my point was there really, except to say that, yeah, that it is really important to think about how boys are impacted by diet, culture, and everything that goes along with that toxic masculinity, etc, etc, etc. So, yeah, do you have anything? Any other thoughts on that?
Oona Hanson
Yeah, I think, like you said, a lot of parents have this myth, right, that eating disorders or body image concerns are only for teen girls and their moms to be worried about, right? I think, you know, when I tell, you know, when I meet someone at an event and they say, ‘What do you do?’, and I say, ‘Oh, I work with families whose kids have eating disorders’, so many parents say, ‘Well, I have boys, I’m so glad I don’t have to worry about that’. So I think there is this pervasive myth, that it’s not something that boys can struggle with. And we know that the rates of eating disorders and disordered eating for boys as you know, it’s exploding. And I think part of what’s tricky is that some boys disordered eating might not be, they might not be losing weight, the way you might picture an eating disorder, some boys are trying to get bigger, and really manipulating their exercise and their food and in ways that are, that can become really problematic. You know, using supplements, that for many kids can be a gateway to things like steroids. So, you know, boys get all the same eating disorders as girls and boys can be vulnerable to you know, what some people call the Adonis complex or biggerexia. And so I think parents should really, you know, have their eye on, you know, their boy who loves to work out and it takes protein powder or whatever, kind of things that again, are all these diet culture, things tend to be so normalised. And I think parents should just have their kind of be aware, right. They don’t need to be terrified, but be aware and try to have conversations with all of your kids about these things.
Laura Thomas
No, absolutely. And I think it’s really important to point out some of the the sort of red flags as it were for I think what you’re talking about here is muscle dysmorphic disorder, which is kind of considered to be the male form of, of anorexia. Also, boys can get anorexia in the traditional sense of anorexia as well. This is just a kind of different presentation of it, where boys perceive boys and men perceive when they look in the mirror They don’t have, you know that they don’t look like the Men’s Health model, which who does in real life, but that there’s this an intense sort of fear that comes up around their body around that and like you say they can start to abuse. It start off with exercise and protein powder, but ended up in taking steroids that result in them becoming infertile. Like it’s really terrifying how sort of slippery that slope is. And I did a podcast ages ago now with one of the researchers who’s kind of at the forefront of muscle dysmorphic disorder, that same Scott’s something I’m forgetting, but I will link to that episode in the show notes for anyone who wants to check it out. But I’m wondering, as well, if we should mention a couple of the red flags for girls are just for anyone have outside of the kind of muscle dysmorphic disorder side of things.
Oona Hanson
I think for all of our kids, regardless of gender, I think we want to look at kind of any change in the way they’re eating. So, you know, I would say the most commonly missed red flag is a desire to eat, so called healthier. So, you know, a child comes home that could be you know, they heard a lesson at school. Maybe the paediatrician said something, maybe they heard a friend, say something like, oh, you know, that kind of food isn’t healthy. If you want to be healthy, you have to eat this way. So your child comes home and says, you know, Mom and Dad, I, you know, I really want to eat healthier. Can I come to the grocery store. And they’re only picking out things that they really never enjoyed before. And their criteria seems very just unusual for them. So that that desire to eat healthier, can be such a slippery slope to restriction to orthorexia, to anorexia, and it can come completely from this idea of pursuing health. So I think people have in their mind that their child has to have pervasive body image distress or have deep psychological challenges to make them vulnerable to an eating disorder. When in fact, the most common, you know catalyst for an eating disorder is getting into energy deficit. And that can happen not only through a formal diet, but through trying to eat so called healthier. So healthy eating is kind of it doesn’t mean Oh, no, hit the panic button. My child wants to eat healthier. It’s more of a conversation like, Oh, tell me more like what do you what does that mean to you? You know, if they say like, I’d kind of like to have a salad once a week, okay, let’s try that. Right. If they’re saying I have to cut out dairy, gluten, all carbs, sugar, you know, they have this list of foods they want to cut out, that’s a much bigger conversation, and that child might need some support. other red flags that can be missed in the teen years are not wanting to eat with a family. So I think we often dismiss certain behaviours as Oh, that’s normal teen behaviour, right? Wanting to eat alone in their room, or kind of being grumpy and wanting to leave the table early. I think that’s a big red flag. It is normal 14 for teens to need more independence. And I think it’s important for families to as much as possible, keep mealtimes sacred. If your child is repeatedly refusing to eat with the family, that’s a big red flag and something to look into.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I think that’s, that’s another really interesting one, because we know that eating disorders are, they sort of thrive in secrecy. And they, their whole MO is to keep that person isolated from the people who care about them and love them, because they are the exact same people that are going to threaten and challenge the eating disorder. So being disordered does not want to be around those people. So yeah, that’s a really, that’s a really important one. And then obviously, just, you know, it’s obvious, but just to state it really clearly, weight loss, in and of itself is a huge red flag, because especially at this time, kids should be growing and gaining weight not losing weight. So yeah. Is there anything else you would add to those?
Oona Hanson
Yeah, I mean, there’s so many, we could go down the whole list. But on the big ones, yeah, I’m trying to, I want to pick the things that I think people don’t know about. Right. So like the healthy eating, the eating alone in the room. And then when you mentioned weight loss, it makes me think to lack of expected weight gain, right. So maybe your child hasn’t lost weight, but you’re like, huh, they wore that same outfit to last year’s Winter dance and it fits them exactly the same as this year. You know, and I think parents get told this myth that after puberty, your child will lean out. And while it’s true, your child might get taller, they should not be the Just maintaining the exact same weight from two years ago, right? That growth curve is a curve. So stagnant weight is definitely a red flag. And I’ll add one more. If you have a daughter who’s an athlete who’s lost her period, you know, that often gets, you know, seen as like, Oh, you’re training really hard, that’s normal. And coaches often don’t know. And sometimes even doctors will say, oh, we’ll just put her on the pill to, you know, jumpstart the period. And it’s well meaning but so uninformed. And, you know, it’s really important for parents of athletes to know that this, you know, this is a huge red flag, and you know, a sign that the body is really not getting enough fuel, and your child needs some support to get some nutritional rehabilitation.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, it is such, I’m so glad that you brought this up. It’s such a pervasive myth that athletes, especially teen athletes, shouldn’t have a period like it’s normal for them to not have a period, it’s not normal, there is absolutely nothing normal about it. And it can increase their risk of I believe it’s endometrial cancer, if they aren’t shedding the womb lining regularly. So it’s really it’s not just an it has implications for like their bone, bone health as well. So it’s not just a, you know, cool not to have to remember to buy tampons every month, I’m saying, there are some serious knock on implications. And also, if the other point that you raised is that that if a period goes missing, that the doctor will often prescribe the pill, the contraceptive pill, and, and then what happens is that parents and the kid themselves gets lulled into this false sense of security, because oh, look, I’m I’m having a monthly period and menstruating. That is not menstruation, that is a withdrawal bleed, it is not, you know, the second that you take them off of that pill, they will, they will, you know, they won’t regain their period. So it’s not a true bleed. And it’s not a treatment for relative energy deficiency in sport, or reds, which is what we’re talking about here is when there’s not enough energy on board to support, you know, these are considered to be non non essential functions of the body, which in fact, are pretty essential for things. So, yeah, thank you for kind of breaking down some of those, those red flags. I’m wondering, are there any other challenges that you see parents struggling with when it comes to supporting teen or tween have a positive relationship with food and their body and what sort of advice or support we should give them?
Oona Hanson
Now, I think one of the big challenges is, you know, it’s normal for adolescents to have a little more awareness of their appearance and how they’re, you know, how they appear to others. Obviously, you add social media on to that, and it’s, you know, it’s amplified even more so like, how many likes do you get and things like that. So while it is normal to have a heightened awareness of appearance, if, if worries about their body image, or whether it’s their skin, their hair, or the shape of their nose, you know, if appearance concerns are really occupying a lot of your child’s mental energy, I think it’s, it’s really worth connecting with them about and getting them support. I think when it comes to weight, because we have been told by diet culture, that weight is in our, it’s totally within our control, very often, well, meaning parents will hear a child say something about their body image and say, Oh, well, let’s, let’s help you eat healthier, or let’s exercise a little more, you know, let’s get you, you know, body shaping undergarments that, you know, there are things that parents might do. And again, in an effort to help their child and maybe try to prevent some of the angst they felt when they were teens. And what we ended up actually doing is sort of agreeing with diet culture, or agreeing with the bully or the kid who teased them, we’re agreeing with their worst fears that something is wrong with the way their body looks. And if parents are agreeing with that, you know, in the moment, our child might feel better of like, Oh, I think I look better in this picture. But really deep down, we’ve kind of lost that sense of like parents or the unconditional love. Their body is never the problem, again, for parents who have fallen into this very common default mode of like, encouraging their child to let’s say, go on a diet or something like that, you know, we can we can go back and get a do over I don’t want any parent to feel like oh my gosh, I you know, I’ve completely ruined my child and our relationship. I do think you can make some repair there. But for those who are entering the whose kids are entering the adolescent years, you know, being prepared to sit with their discomfort rather than trying to rush in and fix everything, right, just like if you’re, if your eight year old said like, I don’t like the shape of my nose, we wouldn’t rush out. And like get a consultation for rhinoplasty, right?
Laura Thomas
I really hope not.
Oona Hanson
Right, if your child were teased because of the colour of their skin, right, we wouldn’t rush out and try to somehow change the appearance of their skin. But when it comes to body size, because of what diet culture has taught us these myths, we think we’re helping by trying to change our child’s body size. So I invite parents to think about your child comes to you with concerns about their body. Think of it like any other physical trait that’s unique to your child and how you would respond.
Laura Thomas
I love that. It’s so difficult because it’s, you know, it’s not just diet culture that we’re pushing back against. It’s, you know, public health experts and our doctors and, you know, everything that that phobia and anti fatness have taught us about what it means to be in a bigger body. And I, you know, I hear what you’re saying is that, parents, you know, they’re there, they have the best intentions, obviously, for their children, and they think that they’re doing the best thing to, to support and help them but what they’re actually doing is colluding with these systems of oppression. And so rather than them falling into that trap, and like you say, reinforcing their worst fears. What we can do is help them externalise body shame externalise, you know, point to and name, these systems of oppression, that harm bodies that create this body hierarchy that’s not real, you know, is completely made up. But that gets reinforced and sustained by the, you know, through systems of oppression. And yeah, teaching body resilience, rather than, yeah, this idea that you need to fix or treat the problem. I think that’s a good place to leave it. What do you think? Unless there was anything you wanted to add there.
Oona Hanson
I’ll add one quick thing, which is, you know, the adolescent years, kids that age often have a keen sense of justice, and fairness. And so exactly what you said about discussing these larger systems of oppression, just like you would discuss racism, or sexism, or homophobia or transphobia, with your, with your teens. You know, we can talk about fat phobia and weight stigma and medical weight stigma, and really help them you know, help them come to that sense of kind of outrage, right, that the system is what’s wrong, not their body.
Laura Thomas
Absolutely. And I think, you know, all of all of these systems intersect and all of these isms, as it were, also intersect and kind of have this additive effect. So if they’re already thinking about transphobia, or racism, homophobia, it’s not too far of a leap for them to understand anti fat bias and medical anti fatness. And yeah, I think you’re, you’re so right with what you say there about that keen sense of justice that especially I feel like teens today, all over Tik Tok all over social justice, you know, that they’re, they’re like, they’re the, they’re going to be the generation that leaves dicing behind. I have hope. Let’s hope I would love that. If not them, then you know, the guys that are like toddlers right now, they’ll be the ones. I’m all right. So at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they’ve been really loving at the moment. So it can be a snack, it can be a podcast, it can be an Instagram account, it can be a book, it can be literally anything. So what have you picked out for us?
Oona Hanson
Okay, so I’m in Los Angeles, and it’s summertime. And I am kind of obsessed with this little fan called a WooZoo.
Laura Thomas
Tell me more.
Oona Hanson
They’re these adorable little fans that are the design is so simple. They’re not loud. So if you want a fan for white noise, it’s not the fan for you. But I keep buying more. So I’ve like pretty much got a woozoo in every room of my house. And my kids love them and they’re kind of adorable too so yeah, I’m kind of obsessed with the woozz fan.
Laura Thomas
I need a visual. How do you spell it?
Oona Hanson
Here, I can show you, of course.
Laura Thomas
I’m trying to imagine, are they like personal handhelds or oh, they’re like little. They’re almost like a space heater. But it’s a little fan. Yeah.
Oona Hanson
And they make different kinds, and even the packaging now they are made in the US. So they might be more expensive where you are. But it’s rare to have things made in America. There is that.
Laura Thomas
Feel like you’re supporting local prodcuts
Oona Hanson
Yeah. It’s not being shipped halfway from our halfway across the world. Yeah, but so I just find so much delight in this little fan.
Laura Thomas
It is a very cute little fan, I have to say, I’m not sure that we’re gonna have much use for it. Well, you know, we’ve had a couple of like, the way that it works in London is we tend to get like these little heat waves that lasts like, three, four or five days. But my toddler did knock over our like, tower. We are on the hunt for a new fan. So I will keep an eye out and see if they’ve got, what did you call them? Woozoos.
Oona Hanson
Yeah, it’s w-o-o-z-o-o.
Laura Thomas
Okay, I will link to them in the show notes for anyone who needs a solid summer fan recommendation. Alright, so my thing this week is Julia Turshen’s substack newsletter. It’s called Keep Calm and Cook On. I think that’s right. I should have probably checked that before I started talking. But I’ll link to it in the show notes. And I for anyone who doesn’t know Julia Turshen’s work, she’s a cook. She’s like I’ve, you know, seen her around the internet for like years, putting out like great recipes. But it seems as though like in the past year or two, she’s just like, gone full anti diet. And I love the sort of intersection between foodie culture and anti diet culture. And she’s having great conversations in her newsletter and on her podcast about like things like fat phobia and the food industry. And like she’s having she’s doing this podcast series at the moment about appetite and talking to people like Angela Garbes. And I’m just here for it. I really enjoy her writing. And yeah, I’m excited to see more of it. So I will link to that in the show notes. You know, this was, this was so fun. Before I let you go. Can you tell everyone where they can find more of your work?
Oona Hanson
Yeah, thanks. So on Instagram, I’m @oona_hanson. When in doubt, it’s an O. On Twitter, and just @oonahanson. And then on Facebook. It’s currently a page and I’m about to make a private group called parenting without diet culture. So right now, it’s just a page where I post articles and podcasts and things like that. But I’m in the process of creating a private group so that parenting without diet culture can be a space where people can ask questions, and really get support for more personal, you know, issues they might be having in their own family. So again, trying to build that community of other parents who are kind of swimming upstream and disaster. So people can check that out.
Laura Thomas
I will definitely link to all of those things in the in the show notes. Like you said earlier, having community around is so important. So I’m really excited that you’re doing that and I will definitely be directing people your way. So thank you so much.
Oona Hanson
Thanks for having me.
Laura Thomas
All right, team. That’s this week’s show. If you’d like to learn more about today’s guest, then check out the show notes in your podcast player, or head to laurathomasphd.co.uk for more details or the full transcript from today’s episode. Big thanks to Joeli Kelly for editorial and transcription support. And if you need to get in touch with me then you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk or find me on Instagram @laurathomasnutrition. And if you enjoyed today’s episode, then you can help the show reach more people by subscribing on your podcast player and sharing it with a friend. Alright team. I will catch you next Friday with a brand new episode.
See you there.
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