Settle in team because this is an episode you’re not going to want to miss! This week’s ‘sode is the first of a 2 part conversation I had with Emiko Davies, an Australian-Japanese food writer, photographer and cook-book author. This is such a wonderful conversation that invites us to imagine another way to feed kids that isn’t so caught up in ideas of perfection, or worrying about nutrition or getting everything “right”. We touch on things like;
- Emiko’s experiences of feeding her kids while living in Italy, and how that differs when compared with other countries.
- Where the pressure to feed kids perfectly comes from and how you can learn to shake that off and relax.
- How a laid back approach to feeding kids could help picky eater to grow to eat a wider range of foods.
The second part of this conversation will be out on your podcast player of choice next week, so keep you’re eyes peeled for that one. As always, if you liked this episode please share the love and hit subscribe to hear part 2 as soon as it’s out!
Show Notes:
- Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter
- Follow Emiko on Instagram
- Follow Don’t Salt My Game on Instagram
- Laura’s Website
- Check out Emiko’s blog
- Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It
- Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course
- Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns
- Edited by Joeli Kelly
Transcript:
Emiko Davies
I think that, you know, what I, what I see out of the, you know, the Italian lifestyle is that eating at a table together isn’t actually about eating. It’s actually about being together. And it’s just not as important what exactly the kids are eating, it’s, we’re here at the table together. And it’s a moment to connect, it’s a moment to talk to each other. And, and that’s what it is, it’s being together. And whether you’re out with friends or other families, or just on your own like that, that really is reflected on an Italian table, whether it’s at a restaurant or somebody’s house is you’re there to be together, you’re not really like looking at what everyone else is eating, and like paying attention to how much of what they’ve eaten or whatever else, it’s just, you’re just there, you’re there to be together. And that aspect of eating is, or let’s say being around a table in Italy, is really the thing, that’s the important thing.
Laura Thomas
Hey, team, welcome back to Don’t Salt My Game, where we are having conversations with game changers who are flipping diet culture on its head. I’m Laura Thomas. I’m a Registered Nutritionist who specialises in intuitive eating and anti diet nutrition. And I’m the author of Just Eat It and How to Just Eat It. Today, I’m sharing part one of my conversation with the joyous Emiko Davies. Emiko is an Australian Japanese food writer, photographer and cookbook author based in Italy. This is such a wonderful conversation that invites us to imagine another way to feed kids that isn’t so caught up in ideas of perfection, or worrying about nutrition or getting everything right in inverted commas. But first, I’m really excited to share that I’m going to be hosting my Raising Intuitive Eaters workshop later this month. And I hope I’ll see some of you there.
All right, so let me tell you a little bit about this workshop. We know that kids are born with embodied wisdom about what, when and how much to eat. They have strong and trustworthy instincts around what feels good in their body. They don’t sit there in their high chairs, calculating macros or judging themselves for how much bread they’ve eaten. And they certainly don’t feel shame about their bodies, and as stewards to these tiny humans it’s kind of our job to help protect these eating instincts. But feeding kids is hard, really hard. And between kiddie food Instagram, body and food shaming public health rhetoric, and celebrity chef comm nutrition saviour is telling us that there’s a right and a wrong way to feed our kids. It’s a lot. So how can we navigate the inferno that is feeding kids in diet, culture, and protect our own sense of self too?
Well, that’s where I’m hoping that my Raising Intuitive Eaters workshop will come in. In this 90 minute workshop, I’m offering you a little bit of background about the ways our kids’ embodiment gets disrupted by diet culture, and what this has to do with feeding. We’re going to explore why we need to throw the rulebook out the window and let them have ice cream before broccoli if that’s what they want to do, and how we can build trust in our kids to get what they need. I’m going to offer you a framework that can help you feel a bit more relaxed about mealtimes whilst encouraging kids to have a bit more autonomy. And we’re going to explore how we can provide supportive structure and how that can encourage children to remain in touch with their internal cues for hunger, satisfaction, pleasure and fullness. We’ll talk about how so called fussy eating develops and get tools to help move through it. We’ll look at why cutting out sugar and saying things like just take another bite can undermine kids’ instincts around food. And we’ll talk about how to talk about food and bodies without causing harm. And lastly, and I think probably most importantly, I’ll hold space to chat with other parents and carers about how hard all of this is. If you sign up for this workshop, you’ll be asked to fill out a short questionnaire about your specific situation. And what I’m going to try and do is look for common threads in your responses and try to address some of the specific concerns that are coming up. And so I’m kind of going to try and cater it to the audience as much as possible. I would say that this workshop is suitable for grownups of kids of all ages, but it’s probably best if your kids are sort of 12 or under. And everyone is welcome. Whether you’re a parent, whatever that means for your family, a grandparent, a teacher, a nutrition professional, anyone else working with kids, yeah, you’re more than welcome to come along. And here’s the lowdown. It’s going to be on Tuesday the 28th of June, seven o’clock British Summer Time, we’re going to be doing all on zoom. So hopefully if you’re not in the UK you can still attend or if you’re not in London, and you will be sent the link to join when you sign up. It costs 15 pounds. But if for any reason you can’t afford to pay that right now please email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk and we will comp your ticket, no questions asked. I trust that if you can afford to pay that you will. And if not, we’ve got your back. You get a 90 minute interactive workshop with time at the end to ask questions to connect with other parents or caregivers. You’ll get a copy of my raising and body teasers PDF booklet to share with friends and family to help support you on your journey to raise an intuitive eater. The session will also be recorded. So if you can’t watch it live, you can access the recording and play it back afterwards. So I’ve put a link to that all of that information in the show notes as well as where you can sign up and complete the registration form. So I really hope to see some of you there.
All right, let’s get back to today’s guest. Like I mentioned, today I’m speaking with food writer, photographer and cookbook author, Emiko Davies. Emiko writes so beautifully about her family’s food culture and how she’s weaving together Italian, Japanese and Australian influences. And I really wanted to share her experiences because it just feels like such a liberating way to approach feeding kids. In countries like the US and Canada, UK and Australia, we’ve really problematized what is actually fairly typical food behaviour for kids. So the feeding industrial complex and diet culture can sell back solutions that don’t actually, you know, to problems that don’t actually exist. It’s also clinical and so called expert led, that we really lose touch with what’s important when it comes to food connection, the deep roots of our food culture, community and of course, the big one pleasure. This was such a rich conversation that I’ve decided to split it over two episodes to give you a bit more of a chance to digest it. In this first part, we’re talking about Emiko’s experiences of feeding her two girls while living in Italy. And how that feels so different from when she travels to other places or goes home to Australia. We talk about where the pressure to feed kids perfectly comes from and how she has learned to shake that off and relax. And we talked about how that laid back approach to feeding kids in Italy helped her extreme picky eater to grow to eat a wider range of foods. And then in part two, which is equally as delicious we talk about Emiko’s experience of parenting a kid in a bigger body, and how she deals with comments and judgments about how she feeds both of her kids. We also go deep into why there is such moral panic about sugar and what the science really has to say about it. So make sure that you’re subscribed on your podcast player to hear that episode when it drops next Friday. All right. I know the world has felt really heavy lately. But I found this conversation to be such a balm and a tonic to everything else that’s going on in the world. And I hope that it feels comfortable and nourishing for you as well. And I’d love to hear what you think you can let me know over on Instagram @laurathomasnutrition, you can note the name change there. Or @dontsaltmygame. Alright everyone here is Emiko.
Laura Thomas
Okay, Emiko, we’re gonna do a quick fire round. I’m gonna ask you a question. And I want to hear the first thing that comes to mind. Are you ready?
Emiko Davies
Okay.
Laura Thomas
Let’s do this. All right, what was your favourite subject at school?
Emiko Davies
Definitely art.
Laura Thomas
I can see that.
Emiko Davies
Yeah, yeah, that was always, that was always there.
Laura Thomas
And I’m excited to ask you this one. What is your most refreshing beverage?
Emiko Davies
Oh, a refreshing beverage.
Laura Thomas
Like your personal preference, like what to you is the most refreshing?
Emiko Davies
Well, okay, I have like seasonal things.
Laura Thomas
This is why I wanted to ask you because I knew it wasn’t gonna be a straightforward answer.
Emiko Davies
I really love a cup of tea, like a cup of Earl Grey tea with a little bit of milk. That’s my like, that’s my pause, like more than a coffee, or anything, a cup of tea. But like, living in Tuscany, it is really really hot here. It’s already, it is already so hot. It’s like 30 degrees today. Wow. And it’s only May. And I’m like bracing myself for this summer, it’s gonna be so hot. So there comes a certain time of the year where I have to have like my last cup of tea, and I am a very sad person. Because I know that I won’t get to have another cup, like enjoy fully a hot cup of tea until maybe October. That makes me sad. So if you know, in my ideal world, I would be able to drink tea all the time. But in the summer, it is just, it is so hot. And all I want to drink in the summer is like ice cold espresso. And in Tuscany they will shake it like a martini with lots of ice. So you know, or the espresso you know it comes out of the machine boiling hot, but it goes straightaway into ice and then it’s shaken. And you get this really really cold like kind of frothy, delicious, ice cold espresso. And that would be what I’ll be drinking from now until September probably
Laura Thomas That sounds so good. I hadn’t, I’ve never heard of that. I’ve been dabbling a little bit with cold brew just experimenting totry and get my ratios, right. Because, I mean, it is a grey day here in London. But it has been quite nice and toasty. And so yeah, but I really liked this idea of like a shaken espresso over ice. That sounds so good.
Emiko Davies
Actually, now that you say cold brew, I do like that, too. It’s just if I’m out not in the house, that’s really hard to find.
Laura Thomas
Ah, is that that’s not like a thing in Italy?
Emiko Davies
It’s becoming a thing, let’s say. So there is like one place in Florence maybe two that do them. But that’s a nice one to do at home too.
Laura Thomas
It’s a fun little experiment, a fridge experiment. Okay, tacos or pizza. I feel like this is kind of sacrilegious to ask you this question, but there we go.
Emiko Davies
I’ll go with pizza
Laura Thomas
For obvious reasons. Okay. Do you, can you tell us like anything about your preference for pizza? Do you have like a go to?
Emiko Davies
Yeah, so, you know, in in, let’s say in Tuscany, the pizza that is sort of most appreciated would be Neapolitan style pizza. That’s like considered, you know, the gold standard of all pizzas. And Neapolitan pizza is, I mean, it’s amazing. It’s, you know, cooked in a 400 degree wood fired oven, and it’s very puffy. And I would say, chewy is the best descriptive. But I quite like a Roman style pizza, which is thinner and crispier. So you have this crust that is a little bit more crunchy, because it is so thin, and doesn’t puff up as much as the neapolitan style pizza you have, you know, a sort of crisper, crunchier style dough. I mean, it’s very subtle. They’re both good. I love,I love both pizzas. But if I get to, if I get to choose or if we’re making it at home, it’s more of a Roman style pizza.
Laura Thomas
I feel like you can’t go too far wrong getting, with whatever pizza you get in Italy. You’re probably gonna get good pizza.
Emiko Davies
Yeah, I mean, yes, I think that more we’re pretty lucky in that sense that it’s, there’s not a lot of like junky pizza out there. It’s all pretty much like dough and like, tomatoes and mozzarella. You know, like
Laura Thomas
The real deal. Yeah. Okay, and again, this might be like a weird question to ask you. But if you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be?
Emiko Davies
Oh, you know, so I mean, I guess I guess I always wanted to have this life living in Tuscany. But but one place I would really love to spend some time living in and I don’t know if I actually will get to do that is Tokyo.
Laura Thomas
Ah, yeah, yeah.
Emiko Davies
So my mother’s from just outside of Tokyo, and we’ve spent a lot of time in Japan, I used to travel every single year, as a child and as a teenager, right up into my 20s. Basically, until my grandparents passed away. I would be there like every year. And so for me, it’s a very special place. And I’ve always sort of, you know, maybe, you know, maybe visiting it is different from actually living and working there, I think for most people, but if I could, I would, I would, you know, move my whole family over there. And we would spend, you know, some time living in Japan, that would be a dream.
Laura Thomas
That sounds really, yeah, that’s definitely on my hit list of places to travel to. But yeah, I’ve never been. Okay. Again, this is going to be I’m going to be really curious to hear your question. What is your sorry? I’m going to be really curious to hear your answer. What is your favourite flavour of cake?
Emiko Davies
Ah, that is a really good question. Um, the cake, let’s Okay, the cake that I love making most for people is a flourless chocolate cake. And the reason I love making that for people is because I think usually people really love chocolate cake, you know, it’s like, you can’t go wrong. And the flourless version, I put almond meal in it, and I grind them from whole. So it is quite like different from using, you know, packet bought almond meal, which can be a bit drier. When you when you blend it yourself, it’s one it’s like, it’s I find it more moist, but also, because I don’t have a really great food processor. It’s like a small sort of wireless one. Pieces remain kind of chunky in it, which I actually really liked. So you have like this texture of, you know, some nuts, but it’s really, really moist and, and quite dense. And it’s just, I mean, I just think it’s so delicious. And whenever I bring that cake to anybody, they’re always so in love with it. So I really like giving people chocolate cake. And I love baking this cake and personally, it’s probably one of my favourites but I’m not. I wouldn’t discriminate against other kinds of cakes, ready to taste them all.
Laura Thomas
I would definitely love to be the recipient of one of your cakes if was like in Italy, that sounds so good. Okay, and last quickfire question. Again. This can be so interesting to hear. Because normally I’m talking to like people who are dietitians or nutritionists and not like foodie people. So what is your favourite kitchen utensil?
Emiko Davies
I love my zester. So it’s like a or a microphone. It’s a microplane. And it’s like the one thing I carry around with me if I have to cook in someone else’s kitchen or do a cooking class for me somebody’s house or Villa or something, or their holiday apartment where there’s like never any good equipment. I always bring my knife roll with like my favourite knives and then I will always put in my microplane. It just does the job better than anything else. If you’re trying to get you know, like lemon zest off of a lemon or an orange zest. The microplane just doesn’t so well and it’s also really good for grating cheese. It makes like this really fluffy, nice Parmesan cheese. And it’s also good for grating truffles which I know that’s not like an ingredient most people but I live in a town that is famous for white truffles and truffles and Yato is one of a handful of places in the whole world that has white truffles. And so truffles are a thing I ended up grating and yeah, the great, the microplane is really really good for that because it gives like really thin really just really nice easy you know, small pieces. It’s also really handy for if you want you know like chopped garlic but you don’t feel like chopping it you just microplane it. It comes out like really small and almost like a mush. It’s really good way better than a garlic crusher which I don’t own so.
Laura Thomas
Oh, interesting. That’s oh, I will have to give that a go.
Emiko Davies
Oh and chocolate, you can great chocolate.
Laura Thomas
Oh yeah. And get like really like little flaky bits.
Emiko Davies
Yes like on top of a tiramisu. So like my mother in law likes to chop chocolate. And I find that really jarring because you’re like eating like smooth silky tiramsu, and then you get like this huge chunk of chocolate. So if you, I mean, you could do cocoa powder, which I really like. But if you, if you microplane the chocolate, it comes out so fine, like this cloud of sort of like, you know, chocolate shavings? It’s yeah, it’s really good, like, versatile, little tool.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I mean, if I didn’t already have one, it would be sold just based on listening to you speak about it. But I do love a microplane. And I think that’s the first time anyone has given that as an answer. So I appreciate that. Okay, Emiko. You’re Australian Japanese living in Italy, raising two girls. And as you’ve just beautifully illustrated, you write so elegantly about Italian food culture, and the love that goes into food and feeding other humans, especially children. And I wonder if we could start out by describing how feeding kids is viewed in Italy, and how that is so different to what you experienced when you go back to Australia.
Emiko Davies
I think that in Italy, family meals, and like eating together as a family is given such a priority. It is like, you know, the thing that everybody will do. So, you know, one of the one of the big differences that I find is when I go home, my kids are like, you know, wide awake until sort of 10 o’clock at night. And, you know, that’s something that’s really really different in you know, I think a lot of Anglo cultures, you know, where the kids are maybe going to bed at? Actually, I don’t remember anymore at like, 7pm or something,
Laura Thomas
I can answer this, because so most kids in it would seem, or a lot of kids in the UK at least go to bed at like 7, 7:30, at least a lot of my friends kids do. My kid must be part Italian somewhere, because he is partying until 10, 10:30, sometimes later. So So yeah, like, I’m sorry, that was a total total tangent. But yeah, I hear what you’re saying. Like, there is this real push to get kids to bed super early in this country. Versus it sounds like in Italy, where they’re allowed. I don’t know if they’re allowed to stay up later, or they’re just not gonna go to bed later. But
Emiko Davies
Yeah, there is this, you, you hold them off. And so that so that everyone can have dinner together. And the dinner together is the priority. So eating together, eating the, you know, a family meal every night together. That is seen as more important than putting your kids to bed early. So, you know, as a result of their kids going to bed later, they might have you know, they nap quite a bit later, I think in age compared to maybe back home. And you’ve got to have like quite a substantial snack, you know, in the, in around sort of four or five, even 6pm which sounds crazy, right? Because that would be like why don’t you just give them dinner. And in fact, I do sometimes when I see my kids are really like, they really actually need dinner at six o’clock. So I will just give them to their dinner earlier but most families do is you have this big snack, the merienda, in the afternoon. And it’s not necessarily big actually. But it might be like it might be like a sandwich. For some kids that might be big actually. So you know in Tuscany what’s really common is a panino you know with some salami for example, or a piece of bread with prosciutto on top or you know, maybe like a Nutella on bread or might be a gelato if it’s the summertime that’s like a you know, considered a good afternoon snack and whatever it is this afternoon snack is, that’s going to help them you know, carry on until you know, eight or 830 maybe when people will then sit down, you know, come home from work, get ready, start cooking dinner and then and then sit down together as a family. And I always found that really interesting before I had children. I was like, What are these people doing? Why don’t they put their kids to bed? And then they’ve got the rest of their evening to themselves?
Laura Thomas
Well, this is the question that I had because immediately I was like, what? Where are the parents getting anytime to themselves? Like, how do the parents handle late bedtimes?
Emiko Davies
I think just everything is a bit later. You know, I think parents themselves maybe go to bed a bit later. I’m not really sure exactly how, like other families are, you know, handling that dynamic. But we, were like night owls, I guess. And I think I wouldn’t normally be a night owl, my natural state is to go to bed at like, 830. And maybe wake up earlier, but I can’t do that living in Italy. I’ve turned into somebody who goes to bed late. Needs more sleep in the morning.
Laura Thomas
So yeah, to just everything adjust the following day, like,
Emiko Davies
Yeah, it really does. And, you know, I do drink a lot more coffee, living in Italy than I do when I’m home. But it is just a whole adjustment. Things like also going out for aperitivo, that’s, you know, that’s a really, that’s actually something I love about Italian culture is the aperitivo is also very, very social. And I do this, we take our kids with us to aperitivo. And that’s just us going for a drink, you know, maybe at about seven. And let’s say we’re going out for dinner, even restaurants don’t open at that time. So we can’t go to a restaurant at seven. But like, we are hungry, you know, and maybe the kids are probably hungry. So we go and have an aperitivo it’s like, literally comes from the word aprire to open, it means it means to open your stomach. The idea is you’re having a little drink and it’s usually like a herby liquor, you know, Aperol, or Campari or some other kind of drink that that, you know, maybe once originated from herbs that help you like digest or get your digestive juices going is what the idea of aperitivo is. So you would have a drink. And you know, it usually like in its most basic form aperitivo or comes with like maybe some nuts, and maybe some crisps or something. But a lot of bars like to, you know, give you crostini, and even like little plates of salami and cheese. So you end up having this like, great little nibble. And then you would go to dinner, you know, 830, or nine or something like that. But the whole idea of the aperitivo to is to, Well, one, it’s like a really nice sort of social activity, as you’re sitting there. You know, if we have aperitivo in our town, we’re usually outside sitting on a bench or sitting, sitting outside, you’ll always see people that you know, walk past, so it’s a chance to, you know, hi and catch up. And, yeah, it’s a nice little thing, I think it’s a really nice little thing to do also, you know, again, very social, and the kids grow up like that, too. They’re there, they’re with you at aperitivo. And you’re all waiting to have dinner.
Laura Thomas
And I love that the kids are brought into, because in my mind, that’s quite an adult thing to do. And I think that there would be much more of a distinction or a separation in other countries. But there is something so powerful, I think about bringing kids in along with that, or along to that. And yeah, making them feel, you know, part of the wider community and that social aspect that that you talked about, because and that’s the real, like thread that that feels really prominent for me is in Italy all of feeding, not just feeding kids, but food culture feels like it’s much more convivial that it has this really social community element to it.
Emiko Davies
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When you’re, it is, like more also more except, I want to use the word acceptable to you know, when you’re going out for dinner, it’s it’s quite normal to have your, your kids with you. And they’re sitting at the table and there’s like a nice tablecloth on the table, you know, and it’s not like people are worried about their kids, you know, tearing the place down or, or whatever else. It’s quite normal for families to go out to eat together and there’ll be, you know, other families eating as well. And, or if you’re, you know, at a gathering, you’re, you’re like maybe a couple of families together at the table, the kids on one end, and they’re they’re doing their thing and the adults get to sit up the other end and do their thing and it’s quite nice because I feel like the kids are so used to it and everybody’s so used to it that that going out to a restaurant isn’t like a really stressful situation like I sometimes feel when I’m at home. It’s like, oh my god, there are children in the restaurant, what are they doing? And you get looks from people, but yeah, it’s not, it’s nice. I do love and appreciate that about being in Italy that, you know, when you plan to see some friends, you can go out to a restaurant and it’s not like, is that going to be like a family friendly place or are we going to, you know, there’s no sort of no need to feel worried about that. And I can remember actually being when I, when my eldest who’s now she’s nine, and she was probably about 18 months old. So you know, I was still fresh as a mom and I was in Rome. And we went out for dinner and okay, it’s only a pizzeria. But I was nervous, I was really, really, like, worried that she would start screaming or crying or whatever else. And we were sitting out in this piazza in Testaccio, which is a really, like, very, very, sort of local residential neighbourhood in Rome. And these young, you know, 20 something waiters, were playing with my daughter keeping her entertained. I was like, this is, wow, this is really not what I was expecting. And this at this point, I was living in Australia, and, you know, had come had come back to Italy for a holiday. So I was used to this, like, kind of panic, oh, my god, like, we might have to leave the restaurant at any moment, like, get my bag ready in case we have to run out, because she’s screaming. But instead, it was just so relaxed. And I just loved that this like 20 year old waiter knew how to keep her entertained, so that we could enjoy our pizza. And she because she didn’t want to stay at the table. That was really hard at that age. But it was, you know, it was really great. And I just cannot imagine that happening in a restaurant back home where the waiters are like, Don’t worry, I’ve got it. I’m gonna hang out with your kid.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, well, I’m just thinking we had an experience just this past weekend, we had my mum down to visit, because it’s Avery’s birthday tomorrow. And so we went out to dinner, and we booked this place, like not really knowing much about it. And then we showed up and it was like, the antithesis of child friendly. And we were like, having to take it in turns to like, take him out into the garden just to let him burn off a bit of steam. But it’s that thing where you feel like such a nuisance to the waitstaff because you’re like, because they’re not used to it. So they don’t think oh, maybe I should bring a teaspoon instead of like, a massive spoon that he can’t fit in his mouth, or like a little side plate or, you know, make accommodations. They just weren’t used to that at all. And it just kind of made me think of as you were talking about how accepting or how acceptable it is a normalised is to take kids along to restaurants and make them part of wider society kind of comes back to this really antiquated idea of children should be seen and not heard. And it feels like just like, what you’re articulating in the difference between Italian food culture, and what I’ve experienced, at least here in the UK, is a sort of embodiment of that, right? Like, kids, you know, you keep them kind of like, keep them quiet, keep them hidden, leave them at home, make sure there’s a babysitter, whereas in Italian culture, they are just, you know, they’re, they’re part of society, they’re, you know, they’re, they’re integrated, like they’re treated like humans, as opposed to like these humans in training that can’t be wheeled out until they’re, you know, they can behave properly in inverted commas.
Emiko Davies
I’ll say also that like in terms of like feeding children when you’re out in a restaurant, it’s like really normal you know, to be out somewhere and the waiter will just be like, what will the kids like? Shall I make them a pasta al pomodoro like we can do a pasta al pomodoro or we can do a simple like plain pasta so like they already know that like kids you know, may not like whatever it is interesting food that you know that they’re offering normally on the regular menu and there may not be a there’s often not a children’s menu like it’s not actually written down as a children’s menu. But it’s like this unspoken thing we will definitely cater to your kids. So we can make this this or that. And I think that that also is something that I have definitely experienced in like family life here in in in Italy where the children’s needs are sort of catered for. So you know, and it’s reflected in a restaurant too. So, if you don’t like that thing, I’m going to cook this thing, you know, or I can offer you this other thing, which is really simple. And, you know, usually liked by by Italian kids anyway, like a pasta al pomodoro. And they’ll often do them, you know, in half portions or whatever else. So they’re smaller and easier to feed them. Yeah, there’s definitely this, this. I don’t know, if it’s, we want to make you happy at the table, or just we’re gonna cater to you. And so if you don’t like this, like, that’s, it’s sort of the typical Nonna thing, if she’s gonna make like, literally everybody’s favourite dish at a family lunch so that everyone has something that they really, really like, at the table. It’s not like, I’ve cooked this one thing, and you better eat it, or else. Like, I’m not making anything else. Nonna, you know, my mother in law. She wants me she wants to please everybody, and she wants everyone to have a nice time at the tables at every family lunch. You know, she makes sure that there’s something that every grandchild really, really loves on the table. And I think that, yeah, I think that that kind of, like, we want to make sure you’re going to be, you know, you’re going to find the dish that you like, or the food that you like, the thing that makes you happy. I really feel that that is something that you see for kids as well, like, especially for kids, I would say like, that you are catered for,
Laura Thomas
That’s really interesting, because it’s really kind of counter to the idea that, you know, we prepare one dish, and the whole family eats it, and everyone gets on with it and likes it. And I appreciate that there’s a piece of this, which is, you know, to cater for everyone’s needs, it’s additional labour, it’s additional work, it’s additional time, it’s additional energy and effort. And I don’t mean to, like diminish that or, or downplay that at all. But at the same time I think there’s just there’s something so powerful in saying to kids, yeah, it’s okay, if you have likes and dislikes. There’s this, I’m just gonna let go and get up on a soapbox for a second because it’s kind of mood I’m in today. But there’s this thing on Instagram. I don’t know if you’ve come across it because I think your Instagram foodie world and my Instagram foodie world are kind of two separate circles. And there’s like a tiny little overlap. But so there’s this thing in like, the child feeding world that comes from like, a dietitian, probably. That is called like, learning it. liking it, no what was it? Loving it, like it, learning it. Right? I don’t know, if you’ve come across this, like, frame yet. And it can, it can be helpful in some ways, because it speaks to this idea that kids do need time and repeated exposure. And, you know, they need to learn about foods before, they’re going to make them you know, part of their, fully integrate them into their diet, if you will. But there’s also this kind of under or kind of subtext of like, if you just repeat how many times this kid is exposed to this food, then they’re going to learn to love it, right. And I find that really problematic from the perspective that it can be kind of gaslighting for kids, particularly kids that are very sensitive eaters who maybe have sensory processing differences, who have feeding differences, who, you know, maybe have a more selective diet, or restricted diet for whatever reason, that you know, there’s this idea that well, if I just, you know, keep telling them, you know, you’re going to learn to like it one day that can be really undermining of them. So yeah, that’s just my little soapbox moment. I’m not sure if that had anything to do with what we’re talking about. It just popped into my head.
Emiko Davies
I mean, it actually really does because my, my personal experience is that my now nine year old. She is a very sensitive very, I would I mean, I guess the word is picky. I don’t like to say that. I don’t like to call her a picky eater, but she was the pickiest picky eater that I’ve ever met. And but her issue was she had a lot of anxiety around food. And when I realised this I mean I was devastated because you know, I’m a I’m a food writer and food is my You know, passion, number one passion. It’s my work. But it’s also my husband’s work. He’s a, he’s a sommelier, and works in fine dining restaurants, and all of our, like, free time is spent either talking about food or cooking food or going somewhere to try some new food. And, yeah, so around about the age of three or so she began, just not eating sort of, you know, up until the age of two, she pretty much ate anything I put in front of her. But I have to say, even when she was six months old, she was very particular about what she ate in that she didn’t want to eat anything pureed. So I had like, made her all these organic puree all these different combinations of fruit and vegetables, I was getting, like really creative, and she didn’t eat any of them, I had to throw everything away, and basically just had to turn to essentially baby led weaning to get her to eat anything. So I would just put, you know, whole foods down that she could hold and put in her mouth herself. And that’s how she fed herself. So I would say even from the moment she could eat, she was already like, picky about what she put in her mouth. And we’re only just coming out of that phase now. And that has been a huge, huge, huge, huge sort of challenge in our lives. I never wanted her to, you know, to be pressured to eat something that she didn’t want to because this was, it was really quite traumatic, you know, she would end up in tears over something on her plate, you know, or she would say no, to play dates, because often they involved, you know, staying at somebody’s house for lunch, or even as, you know, the mirenda, the afternoon snack, and she was terrified of having to eat at somebody else’s house. Or she was terrified of being offered food and put in a position where she might not want the food. And, and she would have to turn it down. She was really worried about how she was going to be seen. And yeah, it was really it’s terrible. I wouldn’t want to wish this experience on anybody because it’s already hard enough, trying to feed your little people and to have some, you know, to have your child so anxious about food. I mean, yeah, it was really, really hard. And so I really appreciated that we were living in Italy at the time, we still are, and that I could order her anywhere, you know, like a plate of plain pasta with nothing but olive oil. That’s something that she would eat. And yeah, things like that. And you know, when we were out and about it was very easy to sort of cater to even her very picky way of eating. But it really, I guess, influenced how we approached eating food at home because my goal at home was to not scare her away from food. But be I wanted her to embrace it in whatever form so even if we weren’t eating, I was you know, and it wasn’t a mealtime I would try to involve her in something to do with foods. So we would, she would come shopping with me, we would go to the market, I would get her to pick things out or show her the different things. We cooked a lot together and I’d get her to crack the eggs and you know, whisk things and dip her hands in the flour. I would get her to you know, stick her hands in tubs of dried beans, you know just any kind of interaction with the food that didn’t involve her having to eat it. I really like tried to encourage that. And then if she did want to eat it fine. I didn’t want to make a big deal. I would almost be like oh, that’s no biggie. Inside I’d be like, Oh my god, oh my god, she’s gonna actually try something new. But you know, I know poker face. And you know, no big deal. Yeah, it was really, that’s been really interesting. And now I would say like in the last, I don’t know, four, three or four months. I have seen just the biggest change where she is now like, Oh, can I try that? And she just put like spicy mayonnaise on something and I was like what? You know, or I was making some sashimi. Not the easiest thing, like raw fish. And she just walked past and like stole a piece and was like, came back and said, Oh, that was really good. Are you making that again?
Laura Thomas
You’re like, yes, yes, I am, I will be making it.
Emiko Davies
Put on my poker face like, I’m gonna make this all the time.
Laura Thomas
Oh, thank you so much for sharing that. It was something that I was kind of peripherally aware of, that you’d had that experience in your family, but I wasn’t really necessarily expecting to get into it today. But it’s, I guess what I’m hearing you say is that living in a culture that just values food, but doesn’t pressure kids around food and is very accommodating to likes and dislikes and preferences that you, it afforded your family a quality of life that I know, a lot of families miss out on when they have a kid with extreme picky eating, or ARFID, whereby, you know, they, they, they can’t go out to restaurants, they have to bring every food or snack or, you know, they have to just literally cater to every meal, which is a lot for a parent, to not be able to go out and just have someone else to cook for you just once in a while. Not that it like resolves all of the issues at all. But it sounds as though it made it a little easier to navigate a really, really difficult feeding situation with your eldest. And yeah, it sounds like, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking about, like, from a nutrition perspective, I was like, okay, she’s doing that strategy, and that strategy and that strategy, you know, like, allowing, allowing the, the, your little one to explore food, but without applying pressure without having an agenda without having any expectation that they will eat this food, just letting them get to know it in, you know, on their own terms, which is ultimately the thing that is going to help them Yeah, become more familiar, become accustomed, and then hopefully, eventually, one day maybe try a piece of sashimi.
Emiko Davies
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I think that, you know, what I, what I see out of the, you know, the Italian lifestyle is that eating at a table together isn’t actually about eating. It’s actually about being together. And it’s just not as important what exactly the kids are eating, it’s, we’re here at the table together. And it’s a moment to connect, it’s a moment to talk to each other. And, and that’s what it is, it’s being together. And whether you’re out with friends or other families, or just on your own like that, that really is reflected on an Italian table, whether it’s at a restaurant or somebody’s house is you’re there to be together, you’re not really like looking at what everyone else is eating, and like paying attention to how much of what they’ve eaten or whatever else, it’s just, you’re just there, you’re there to be together. And that aspect of eating is or let’s say being around a table in Italy is really the thing, that’s the important thing. And so, I really kind of embraced that, as we were going through this challenge with our daughter, because I thought as long as she realises that the table is a place where she can feel safe and comfortable, and that she’s happy here. And we can continue having these like, you know, relatively like, relatively stress-free kind of just happy moments at a table that is, that I’m going to just be happy with that because I was so afraid that I would turn her off food or I would turn her off mealtime. So she wouldn’t want to come to the table if she was scared about being judged or scared about eating. I just, I wanted her to know that the table is like sacred, you can come to the table and we’re gonna just have a nice time and have a chat and hang out and if you eat, that’s fine. And if you don’t feel like eating, that’s okay, too. I just like wanted her to know that being at a table was about being together. And yeah, I think that that is something that Italians do really, really quite well.
Laura Thomas
That’s such a powerful way of framing it. And then I think, you know, it kind of runs the gambit of being supportive for a child’s relationship with food. From the perspective of that, you know, going through that food neophobic phase where they’re, you know, fussy or picky or in your case they have that real extreme picky eating all the way through to, you know what, what we see a lot of in the UK and the US, and I’m assuming Australia as well, which is a much more fear-based approach to food and eating and fear of things like sugar, for example, or gluten or, you know, a whole myriad of foods. So it kind of, is really protective of people’s relationship with food it sounds like.
Emiko Davies
Yeah, I think there’s a lot less, you know, demonising of this or that one singular ingredient. And, you know, maybe it’s because I want to, I kind of think it’s maybe because in Italy, a lot of people know a lot about food. You know, Italians love talking about food, even if that’s not their profession, or they don’t know, you know, they just they, people know about food. And I think it’s because of, you know, seeing witnessing people cooking at home a lot, growing up with a Nonna in the kitchen, you know, your grandma who is making this, this and that, because Italy does, you know, still have these multi-generational households where the kids are growing up side by side with their grandparents who are still cooking in the kitchen. So even if the parents are busy working, there’s someone there, you know, cooking at home. And so you see these things being made. Or, you know, pretty much everybody knows someone who makes their own olive oil, makes their own wine, makes their own bread, whatever it is, you know, goes out and hunts wild boar and then makes their own salami or sausages, you know, there’s there is this, we kind of have this around us all the time. And so you do witness, you know, where food comes from. And then these like, deep, deep, like, deep, really deep seated traditions of, you know, what foods are, let’s say, I mean, I just don’t see the whole this is good, or this is bad. As much here as I feel when I’m in the UK or in or just like reading the even reading things about, you know, diet culture in the US or, or when I’m back home in Australia, I just, I feel like there is a bit more awareness about maybe just that, that food is all food is good, or, or this food is made with, you know, it’s got these things in it. And these are all like normal ingredients. Why would those things be bad? You know? I mean, we are sort of also lucky, I think in Italy, that things like gelato and pizza are probably a better version here than they are in other countries overseas where those things could, you know, are probably a bit, a bit, you know, let’s say they’re not artisanal made.
Laura Thomas
Right, right. They’re not as they’re not as delicious. Yeah, they, yeah.
Emiko Davies
Yeah. So we are kind of lucky here, right? I don’t know. I do sense that this, this, just sort of a more of an appreciation of, of maybe where food comes from the traditions, the traditions, you know, are so deep rooted that no one’s going to, like suddenly give up gelato because walking, walking with a gelato in the evening in the summertime is one of the most joyful moments of the whole summer like the hot hot hot days. Everybody, no matter how old you are, from like nine months old to ninety-nine. Like you’re looking forward to that like, taste of a cold you know, gelato and walking through town at 11pm at night or whatever it happens to be but that is the moment when when you know, you get you get a bit of like, joy from this sort of hot summer’s day.
Laura Thomas
I have to say when I read your piece the other week where you were describing this exact scenario, where it’s a you know, after dinner you kind of meander down the street with your gelato in tow at some ludicrously late hour of the night. I was highly highly influenced. And I went straight to just a local shop that, I don’t know. When was the last time you were in? In London.
Emiko Davies
It’s been two, three years.
Laura Thomas
Okay. Have you heard, have you come across Hackney gelato?
Emiko Davies
No, no.
Laura Thomas
Okay. Well, it’s something to like, bookmark for next time, but you can buy it like in any old store. It’s not like a freshly scooped thing. But that said it is delicious. And it’s so creamy and so just yeah incredible. And I had the coconut one for anyone who’s interested. And I was just like I had that piece in my mind the piece that you wrote, I’ll link to in the show notes. But yeah, I was highly influenced after that and I was like, This is how I want to eat food everywhere. How you describe how you described it in the article because like, even reading your piece and you highlighting just you know how things are really slowed down how things are so unpressured and stress free. You know, even though I’ve done a lot of work on trying to make mealtimes stress free, sometimes they still can feel really hectic. And so it was just like a nice little reminder to me to just kind of like yet take it down a notch. But I kind of want to get your thoughts on sort of, you know, you’ve you’ve spoken so beautifully about why Italians are maybe a bit more relaxed around food, you talk about in your piece that kids will have a cookie for breakfast, or they’ll have gelato for their afternoon snack, and that’s just like, you know, perfectly normal way of approaching food. What about the converse, I suppose why do you think in places like the UK and Australia and the US that feeding kids feel so pressurised why we put a tonne of pressure on ourselves to feed them perfectly, but also put a tonne of pressure on kids to eat perfectly in inverted commas. Do you have any thoughts about that?
Emiko Davies
I feel like okay, so I’m not an expert on this, but just observing and, you know, raising children in two cultures. And, you know, reading and seeing things and experiencing them in two cultures, I kind of feel like we have a lot of fear about we’re going to mess the kids up somehow, like they’re going to b,e I don’t know. what’s going to happen to them if they eat, you know, just pizza every day, or what’s going to happen to them if I give them this gelato, you know, people are, I don’t know why it is exactly this is something that I’m not sure whose fault it is that this has happened, but I just feel like we like as parents as the adults are so afraid of doing something wrong. And, you know, I honestly think that everybody is trying to do the best thing for their kids, or, you know, whether they are, you know, full of stress and pressurising them to eat broccoli or something else, they’re trying to be like the best parent, they really are, like, trying to do something really, that they think is really important for their children. And, but exactly why we feel like we really need that thing to happen. And we’re gonna, like make our kids you know, stress about eating everything on the plate or stress about you haven’t eaten this thing or that thing. I don’t know why, why it is that way. When I really think that in the long run, how you feel, when you sit down to eat, or how you feel as a family sitting down to eat, I think that in the long run how you felt is what the child is going to remember as a memory, or, or what you’re going to remember even like six months from now or a year from now, like were all of your childhood meals, like full of stress, or do you have like really nice memories of just like, who remembers what they were eating when they were a child? You know? But you might remember Oh, yeah, that was really like nice when we would you know, do this or that thing. I do think that like how you feel is going to be really the thing that is going to leave its mark more than you know, a florette of broccoli.
Laura Thomas
But that goes both ways. Right? Like they did a really interesting study where they asked college age kids, you know, young adults if they were ever forced or pressured to eat foods as as children and they all had very vivid memories of being forced to I don’t know clear a plate of brussel sprouts or something. And they also didn’t eat that food as adults adult they avoided eating that food. Is that feeling like you described of you know, how do you feel when you sit at the table. Do you remember, you know, and again, I don’t want to over romanticise family meals, because sometimes they can be, especially if there’s, you know, if the family dynamics, you know, maybe like parents are going through a separation or something, you know, there are all sorts of reasons why that, you know, family meals aren’t the be all and end all. And you know where we do sit, I like to think of it as, as either with a trusted adult or trusted adults. But also studies have shown that, that kids get that sense of community and conviviality and connectedness, from eating with their peers as well, which I think is so lovely. And I’m sure you see that a lot in Italy.
Emiko Davies
You know, what’s really interesting is, yeah, in Italy, in Italian schools, they have a really different system for eating, and the kids will sit all together, the entire class. So your class who you’re with every single day, you sit down every day at a long table with all of your classmates and your teacher. And you all eat the same meal. So people, you don’t bring in your own meal, you’re not like sitting and eating something half a thing out of your lunchbox and then throwing the rest in the bin or whatever and going off to play. That’s what my daughter was doing. When I when I sent her to school in Australia for a month. When she was in first grade, a couple of years ago. She loved it because she didn’t have to sit at the table and she didn’t have to sit with her teachers. She was worried that everyone was watching what she was eating. Oh, she really enjoyed having the freedom of just bringing her favourite lunch in her lunchbox and then running off to play. But, but I do think it’s what you’re saying about the peers. That’s really, really interesting. And I have heard from many of my friends, that their children will eat things at school that they don’t eat at home. And they apparently you know, because the teachers report they’ll when you go to pick up the kids, they’ll tell you if they ate this or that or they didn’t eat their lunch or they you know, yeah, they keep an eye on the kids and they tell you and it’s interesting because they yeah, they often will eat you know, suddenly start eating fennel or something because that’s a really common dish on a on Florentine lunch.
Laura Thomas
I love how that is a school lunch.
Emiko Davies
Yeah. Like my nearly four year old so what did you have at school today? And she’s like, Oh, I had some I had carrot soup. It was yummy. And I was like, what? You never eat carrots. Yeah, so it’s interesting that they do I think, you know what, for one that they’re eating all the same meals. So no one is like, Oh, what are you eating? That’s weird, or that’s Yeah, right. Or they’re not eating their comfort food. And they maybe might be so desperate that they actually reach out to try something. My eldest daughter would, most likely fast at lunch and she would come home starving, not having eaten anything all day. But eventually, you know, now I’m seeing that she is dabbling, and this sort of, that and she’ll come home and say, Oh, we had, you know, this, this thing or that. And so that that aspect of the way that meals are incorporated from such a young age, like from preschool, all the way through, all the way through middle school. I think is is really I mean it’s something that I really appreciate in Italy that they’re that they are doing that everyone’s sitting together and eating the one meal there’s no other choices, you just have to eat that one meal that you’re given. And so I also because of that I don’t that’s not what I do at home, I like to cater to. I mean I like like to not have to cook a meal for every person, that’s great. But I but I do know that at school that that’s what they get. And so at home I sort of I tend to make things that they do like and that they’re going to enjoy and be happy with.
Laura Thomas
Well I’m a big advocate of having something on the table that is that you know is what some people call a safe food or a preferred food that that food that we know that they can see that on the table. There’s enough of it that they can fill up on it even if they don’t eat anything else and also just to take the pressure off of parents who feel like they have to you know create something, you know a whole meal for everyone you know that can be, it can be bread, it can be a side of rice or pasta or something like that you know that they will eat and they can get enough of and we know that when they can come to the table and feel safe at the table as you’ve spoken about so beautifully. That they are, yeah, they might eat a shit tonne of rice. But they’re also more likely to maybe think about, okay, there’s a bit of tomato there, or there’s some cucumber or whatever it is. And yeah, experiment a little bit.
All right team. We’re leaving it there for this week. And we’ll pick up on part two of this episode with Emiko next Friday. So that’s the 10th of June. And as always, the transcript for this episode is over on my website laurathomasphd.co.uk and the link to sign up to my raising intuitive eaters workshop is in the show notes below this episode. Thanks to Joeli Kelly for editing this episode. And I’m gonna catch you next week.
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